What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#31

Post by theplumber » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:02 AM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #21

Whenever I read about SAP (which I hate, so don't mistake this for an objective take) it reminds me of the discussion about self-hosting your email: "Oh, no, it's too complicated, you are better off paying someone else to do it for you". The problem being, I host my own email and it works fine , which makes me suspicious of the common takes about ERP too. Now, I get it, once you have to deal with taxes and payroll in…

>> Now, I get it, once you have to deal with taxes and payroll in multiple countries it gets messy, but why wouldn't you consider that a core part of your business worth investing into?

It may work using an open source model. However you don't really want to invest into non-core business(es). It takes away money, talent and energy that you would better put into doing what you do best.

I've experienced this first hand developing an invoice system(not my core business). I still use it but if I were to do it again I would develop only the functionality that I was missing in the commercial offering and try an integration. Time spent on the none core business is time wasted.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#32

Post by hardware2win » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #11

JetAlone wrote: post #5

You can copy off my homework, but just this once 1) They do Enterprise Resources Planning. 2) Because ERP is immensely complicated, and encompasses features that would be useful for almost anyone coordinating any organization, and ERP systems are really hard to change, so they have acquired a user base with lots of zeroes and a thick moat to keep them in.

Though they have many competitors. A consultant who works on integrating SAP told me once that what gave them a competitive edge is that they let 3rd party consultants integrate SAP while others insist on in house consultants. That means that 3rd party consultant have a clear preference when it is time to advise the client on which system they should pick. That was 20y ago, not sure if it is still the case.

When I worked with smaller ERPs then I've witnessed the same

3rd party were working closely with customers and helped them maintaining the stuff

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#33

Post by isoprophlex » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

carstenhag wrote: post #23

numlock86 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I remember when Lidl tried to integrate SAP in 2015. No one really knows why and after already having spent €500,000,000 in 2016 they pulled the plug and just dropped the project because obviously it wasn't done at that point and they still would have to pay more to finish it. The initial offer never went public but I overheard someone once saying it was like €75,000,000 "only" ... They went back to further d…

The issue there was that Lidl did not adapt to SAP. They tried to adapt the SAP system to Lidl. Everyone tells you that this is a really bad idea. Everyone.

Yeah you build your business around what SAP allows you to do, or you roll your own. Adapting SAP to existing business is just madness.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#34

Post by roflc0ptic » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

carstenhag wrote: post #23

numlock86 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I remember when Lidl tried to integrate SAP in 2015. No one really knows why and after already having spent €500,000,000 in 2016 they pulled the plug and just dropped the project because obviously it wasn't done at that point and they still would have to pay more to finish it. The initial offer never went public but I overheard someone once saying it was like €75,000,000 "only" ... They went back to further d…

The issue there was that Lidl did not adapt to SAP. They tried to adapt the SAP system to Lidl. Everyone tells you that this is a really bad idea. Everyone.

Clearly there was someone making part of that $500,000,000 that wasn't telling them this.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#35

Post by danuker » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:04 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #10

This is a good time to remind everyone of the rules of SAP integration: 1) Your company processes MUST adapt to SAP processes. That's it. You can try customising SAP to fit your processes, but you will just waste time and hundreds of millions of money and then you will fail. Lidl spent almost a decade and 500M€ on its SAP project, but didn't follow rule #1: https://www.henricodolfing.com/2020/05/case-study-lidl-sap-d…

> You can try customising SAP to fit your processes

So you are paying hundreds of millions to get a canned, pre-packaged, inflexible solution?

Why is SAP still in business? Is it solely customer misinformation?

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#36

Post by appleflaxen » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:04 AM UTC

carstenhag wrote: post #23

numlock86 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, I remember when Lidl tried to integrate SAP in 2015. No one really knows why and after already having spent €500,000,000 in 2016 they pulled the plug and just dropped the project because obviously it wasn't done at that point and they still would have to pay more to finish it. The initial offer never went public but I overheard someone once saying it was like €75,000,000 "only" ... They went back to further d…

The issue there was that Lidl did not adapt to SAP. They tried to adapt the SAP system to Lidl. Everyone tells you that this is a really bad idea. Everyone.

What are some aspects of the "SAP way of doing things"? Do you know any examples?

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#37

Post by sally_glance » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:04 AM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #22

for anyone wondering, erpnext.com is a good "alternative" and it is very active on github with lots of people working on it each and every day. they have hosted plans as well as allowing users to selfhost and only pay for "support and customization" for anyone needing which works out pretty well for many.... SAP is well and good but you have good alternatives

Odoo comes to mind as well. Nowhere close to the commercial options in terms of ecosystem/features and hiring/consulting availability though.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#38

Post by appleflaxen » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:05 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #10

This is a good time to remind everyone of the rules of SAP integration: 1) Your company processes MUST adapt to SAP processes. That's it. You can try customising SAP to fit your processes, but you will just waste time and hundreds of millions of money and then you will fail. Lidl spent almost a decade and 500M€ on its SAP project, but didn't follow rule #1: https://www.henricodolfing.com/2020/05/case-study-lidl-sap-d…

What are the fundamentals of "SAP processes"? Can you provide any detail?

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#39

Post by carstenhag » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:06 AM UTC

gadders wrote: post #13

I worked on a SAP project for a Legal Entity Creation/Staff Migration in the HR piece. Technology wise, it's weird. It reminds me a bit of Lotus Notes, in that everything including the screen layouts are stored in the database.

Afaik all ABAP code is stored in the database and run from there as well.

Re: What's SAP, and why's it worth $163B? (2020)

#40

Post by taway19920706 » Fri, Sep 09, 2022, 8:06 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #11

JetAlone wrote: post #5

You can copy off my homework, but just this once 1) They do Enterprise Resources Planning. 2) Because ERP is immensely complicated, and encompasses features that would be useful for almost anyone coordinating any organization, and ERP systems are really hard to change, so they have acquired a user base with lots of zeroes and a thick moat to keep them in.

Though they have many competitors. A consultant who works on integrating SAP told me once that what gave them a competitive edge is that they let 3rd party consultants integrate SAP while others insist on in house consultants. That means that 3rd party consultant have a clear preference when it is time to advise the client on which system they should pick. That was 20y ago, not sure if it is still the case.

Indeed, to SAP the "partner ecosystem" is a big thing. I think they realised early on that if they were to succeed, their success would be driven by consultants with "business expertise" who were recommending SAP as "best of breed".

Of course, the reality is that many of those consultants who are being charged to customers at eyewatering rates just finished the training course last week and are now "senior".