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Defending Privacy in Crypto

blog.coinbase.com

31–40 of 87 posts

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what are you going to do if governments get rid of it? You have no recourse, only privacy coins like monero offer some.

Your argument is a logical fallacy. You should not have knife at home, because you could kill somebody with one. We should allow full privacy on crypto, because the government could kill cash.

My point is that it's pointless to be idealistic about how things should be, what matter is how they are. Why would a government which seeks to track its citizens every move keep cash around, when digital money suits their purposes better, and the vast majority of people pay using their phone or card anyway? When that happens, you have 0 way of transacting with anyone without the government watching over your shoulder.

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#32

Good (and TBH unexpected) move by Coinbase. If we lose the foundations of privacy at this stage, the future of crypto would be severely affected. Crypto and digital assets should be free from regulation, even if it brings side effects (e.g. laundering). The moment we centralize crypto by state, we lose the war against corrupted states and centralization. While I don't support bad actors that use crypto in any way, I…

> Crypto and digital assets should be free from regulation, even if it brings side effects (e.g. laundering).

It's far from clear to me why on earth crypto should be free from regulation at all.

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#33
post #8

It is interesting that I have strictly no empathy for the people defending "privacy" in crypto. I have it fully for the ability to pay in cash for our every day stuff. Privacy in crypto is basically reallowing tax havens in the " digital " world where we spent years to try to curtain them in the " real " world. A good friend of us happens to be working at a high level at the EU commission. Discussing about Bitcoin/Cr…

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Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s wasted money. Infinite public money will be spent to bat down these lawsuits until it’s set in stone. Widespread privacy in crypto == end of civilisation. This sounds ridiculous but logically one has to follow the other in a few very short steps.

> Widespread privacy in crypto == end of civilisation. This sounds ridiculous but logically one has to follow the other in a few very short steps. That does sound ridiculous. What are the steps?

Privacy in crypto -> fewer taxes being paid -> less money to develop an anti-meteor shield -> large meteorite destroys civilization.

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#35
post #11

Nowhere in this blog post: any discussion of money laundering, sending funds to terrorist groups, rogue states. Without mention of any of the legitimate reasons the US government is sanctioning Tornado Cash, this is merely propaganda from a financially interested party.

We should not have our rights removed because other people who break the law might also benefit from. We cannot have a free society if every decision is "Wont somebody think of the children" or "but the terrorists". Liberty or death: it is not death of the individual but death of society. The resilience of our social structure is dependent on our freedoms. I cant say how saddening it is to have lived through the cryp…

When you say "might" - you're aware Tornado was actually used for these things to the tune of at least half a billion dollars?

Basically, the case you're making is: they might have actively aided and abetted nuclear proliferation - but they're technologists, so their actions are sacrosanct and cannot be subject to the usual penalities because we've been ultra smart and managed to create an industry where free speech and money laundering can be switched out at will like in a shell game.

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#36

First coinbase should provide basic features to users before stepping up the Privacy. There is no way for a user to delete coinbase account. Looking around the web I realised its a dark pattern in their design.

Coinbase respects KYC/AML regulations, which prevent deleting accounts.

They have to do that and it is a good thing, like standing up against overreaching regulations in this case.

If it would not be "crypto", HN would stand unanimously with the privacy fight. Banning open source software which has legitimate use cases, such as anonimizing donations to Ukraine in fear of retaliations, paying for abortion in States in the US where it is legally restricted, etc. is a no brainer to me as it sets a grave precedent.

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#37

I don't think you can defend this kind of privacy in a court. They are not impartial. This is not really about crypto, or tornado cash. I think it's more about ownership and surveillance. The only solution is to innovate in the area of evasion. Since there is no middle ground amenable to the ones who make the laws in their own interests. We can just look at wikileaks, panama papers and so on. Money laundering and emb…

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Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#38

I don't think you can defend this kind of privacy in a court. They are not impartial. This is not really about crypto, or tornado cash. I think it's more about ownership and surveillance. The only solution is to innovate in the area of evasion. Since there is no middle ground amenable to the ones who make the laws in their own interests. We can just look at wikileaks, panama papers and so on. Money laundering and emb…

> This is not really about crypto, or tornado cash. I think it's more about ownership and surveillance. The only solution is to innovate in the area of evasion. Since there is no middle ground amenable to the ones who make the laws in their own interests.

I’m genuinely unsure what your point is?

Are you saying that because the rich and powerful are destroying society by evading taxes and weakening the fundamental infrastructure of our civilization, the rest of us should have crypto so we can be in on the loot?

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#39
What I would like to see is reversible and auditable privacy in crypto: to participate I need to disclose my real identity to a broker I trust that follows all KYC compliance rules in the jurisdiction it operates, and my financial identity and transactions are private until law enforcement performs an unblinding transaction that is auditable on the blockchain, (in the vein of Chaum blind signatures), yielding my broker identity and unique customer ID, which the broker can associate with its records.

This way, I would have guaranteed and auditable privacy that the government cannot surreptitiously break, but there is an route to find identifying information with a noisy and court approved process. This would involve both a technological side and an organizational one - brokers would have to setup some type of clearing house that processes legal documents and requests for unblinding, approve new brokers and terminate those that do not follow relevant KYC practices, etc. A middle option between banks (no privacy, 100% agents of the government) and crypto (anonymous brokers, untraceable in competent hands, excellent for money laundry).

We cannot continue to pretend that the current crypto crop "is just like cash". I most certainly cannot teleport 1 billion dollars in cash across borders, completely untraceable. If you cannot see a problem with this feature of crypto and the bad types of people it would attract and enable, then you might be suffering from a case of sociopathy.

Re: Defending Privacy in Crypto

#40
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to use digital currency for everything with no privacy and complete government control is going to be amazing, you're right!

If you read my comment, I explicitly said that we should keep cash.

First off, i like cash and try to do most transactions with cash.

But in an increasingly computational world it seems useful, probably inevitable, that digital programmable money will play a bigger part in the future.

So do we want p2p borderless networks, built on a history of foss and the internet, with varying mixtures of privacy and transparency? or do we want government digital coins that will likely be fully surveilled and centrally controlled?

which is more resilient? which is harder to corrupt? which provides everyday people with liberty and control? which removes power from rulers and pushes it to participants?

"We should keep cash" doesn't seem like a reasonable stance to take at this point. We need to defend our rights to publish free open source code, to freely associate over networks with other individuals and organisations, and to maintain/develop our privacy in our private interactions.

I dont see the version made by the government respecting those concerns, it is too easy to throw up a patriot act, to say "what about the paedophiles/terrorists/drugdealers" and suddenly law abiding citizens have their rights restricted and power becomes ever more centralised and hierarchical.

It is surprising to me to come to a site called hackernews, and see such little hacker spirit. It really feels that "crypto is icky" idea has taken hold so strongly that people are happy to give up their rights because the people they dont like will be less profitable. That is incredibly sad.

It seems if you post a SAAS website for finding rare sneakers you get HN praise as though that is peak culture, but if you choose to hack on money, ownership, provision of public goods, voting, borderless systems, and anonymous organisations, to actually address what power and democracy looks like in our future you are too close the dirty people. No we must stay as we are, we must trust the institutions, because everyone was happy before bitcoin, right?...

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