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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#31

Post by threatofrain »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24
411111111111111 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they probably had a previous agreement assuring the auction, but it wasn't the police's job to make that decision. They're the executive, not the judicative. A judge would've had to make this assertion, which clearly didn't happen as they didn't have a warrant. The officers still drove all over the state into a different jurisdiction (while using taxpayers money). They likely could've gotten the goat without ma…

> it wasn't the police's job to make that decision If my car is stolen and I see it in someone’s garage, I absolutely expect the police to do something about it. In this case, the facts about lawful ownership were straightforward.

Although the conceptual boundary is thin, stealing is a crime and contractual violation is a tort. If we believe that our rights are secured by the counterbalancing of powers, then we ought not permit police to adjudicate torts.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#32

Post by JumpCrisscross »

joe_guy wrote: post #27
vogt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents were the ones who confiscated someone else’s property when the goat was sold. But yeah, I agree, they do, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’re going to stick it to me with ACAB sentiment because I am no fan of the state or police. I am a fan of honoring contracts and sales.

> am a fan of honoring contracts and sales. It's perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it. > Breach of contract is not a crime or even a tort. Punitive damages are generally not an available remedy. The only remedies are to make the non-breaching party whole. The main theory behind this rule is that the law sho…

> perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it

Every contract comes with its invisible body of law attached. For purchase and sale contracts, particularly those involving livestock auctions, property law comes into play. Withholding someone else’s property is criminal. The police showed discretion in not charging the family. But recovery is totally within their remit.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#33

Post by bombcar »

kurupt213 wrote: post #20
vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

Dogs that go to a no kill shelter get transferred to the kill shelter if they aren’t adopted

Yeah there’s not a magical supply of no-kills, and even if they are they fill up darn fast.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#34

Post by JumpCrisscross »

threatofrain wrote: post #31
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it wasn't the police's job to make that decision If my car is stolen and I see it in someone’s garage, I absolutely expect the police to do something about it. In this case, the facts about lawful ownership were straightforward.

Although the conceptual boundary is thin, stealing is a crime and contractual violation is a tort. If we believe that our rights are secured by the counterbalancing of powers, then we ought not permit police to adjudicate torts.

> stealing is a crime and contractual violation is a tort

Purchase and sale of livestock has a deep body of law attached.

Judicial involvement isn’t always necessary, though either side can petition its review. (These cops had a warrant, by the way [1].) In this case, the parents waited until after the auction, after the seizure and after the slaughter to do that.

[1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#35

Post by mindslight »

vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show

By my reading, the family did not bring the goat to the 4H auction. Rather it seems 4H loaned them the goat to raise, with the intent that 4H would sell it at auction later.

Viewing this through the simplistic lens of property can only lead to a single conclusion. The real question is about the failings of the property model when it comes to pets. Most people consider it abhorrent that the compensation for a pet dog being murdered is anchored around the economic value of "one dog", rather than the dog's life itself plus the pain and suffering of losing a family member. And of course, our society categorically rejects the administration of human relationships in terms of property interests.

It's not a stretch to say that by raising the goat, the girl developed a type of interest in it. And to point out there was a straightforward way to respect the girl's interest while also respecting the economic interest - give the family the right of first refusal at the auction, or other appropriate compensation as the family had seemingly offered.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#36

Post by alistairSH »

superchroma wrote: post #5
411111111111111 wrote: post #2

How does America have such an abundance of police which behave in such an obviously morally corrupt manner? In most nations the police makes at least a token effort to appear trustworthy for plausible deniability. From the states you get weekly reports that are so outlandishly bad that you almost can't believe it. Really strange as a bystander.

I want to believe it's because police departments deliberately preference unintelligent applicants over intelligent ones, but I quietly suspect it's something cultural.

Police departments have been known to avoid hiring smart people… https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/robert-jordan-too-smart-...

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#37

Post by bombcar »

joe_guy wrote: post #27
vogt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents were the ones who confiscated someone else’s property when the goat was sold. But yeah, I agree, they do, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’re going to stick it to me with ACAB sentiment because I am no fan of the state or police. I am a fan of honoring contracts and sales.

> am a fan of honoring contracts and sales. It's perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it. > Breach of contract is not a crime or even a tort. Punitive damages are generally not an available remedy. The only remedies are to make the non-breaching party whole. The main theory behind this rule is that the law sho…

If you sell someone a car, and then go take it back, you’re not violating a contact, you’re stealing a car.

If you never deliver it, maybe that’s arguable but even then it could often be considered theft.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#38

Post by rascul »

kurupt213 wrote: post #25
johnklos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops extrajudicially confiscating property isn't violating rights? Have someone try it on you and see whether you still think that. Cops in the US get off on forcing their will on others.

Police unilaterally recover stolen property all the time.

In this case, the police supposedly left their jurisdiction to seize property without a warrant. That doesn't seem normal to me.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#39

Post by kittiepryde »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24
411111111111111 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they probably had a previous agreement assuring the auction, but it wasn't the police's job to make that decision. They're the executive, not the judicative. A judge would've had to make this assertion, which clearly didn't happen as they didn't have a warrant. The officers still drove all over the state into a different jurisdiction (while using taxpayers money). They likely could've gotten the goat without ma…

> it wasn't the police's job to make that decision If my car is stolen and I see it in someone’s garage, I absolutely expect the police to do something about it. In this case, the facts about lawful ownership were straightforward.

An anecdote- my mother's car was stolen, stripped for parts, and the repair shop that stole out, had it visible and out in the open the entire time, police (Virginia, Hampton area, a decade ago) refused to recover property, and we couldn't afford to go to court.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#40

Post by krisoft »

vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show.

What are you talking about? They kept it on property and law enforcement agents turned up (without a warant, inserting themselves into a civil dispute) and stole their goat.

This is the contentious point. What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them?

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