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Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

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Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#31

Post by hotpotamus »

silicon2401 wrote: post #23
deltasevennine wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's rather interesting from my perspective. There are actually three sides. Not two. Three. The first side is those who support political correctness. This side is singular. Simple. The other two sides are those who don't. This is where it gets interesting. One side that doesn't support it actually has hatred for marginalized groups. They aren't politically correct because of actual raw hatred. These people inc…

> We'd all be happier if everyone was politically correct That's objectively false. I would not be happier if everyone were politically correct, because I'm a strong believer in free speech, even if it's offensive. You can say whatever heinous, horrendous things you want about me and my loved ones as long as I'm able to walk away and disengage (if you pursue and target me, it changes from free speech to harassment/as…

> so I hate the idea of white lies or convenient falsehoods.

But as a believer in free speech, you must support peoples' freedom to engage in lies, no?

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#32

Post by CrazedGeek »

deltasevennine wrote: post #20
Bakary wrote: post #7

Are there any examples of discussions or arguments having to do with political correctness that are actually thought-provoking? Seems like it's always the same ideas that come up whether the people involved are for it or not.

Yes. It's rather interesting from my perspective. There are actually three sides. Not two. Three. The first side is those who support political correctness. This side is singular. Simple. The other two sides are those who don't. This is where it gets interesting. One side that doesn't support it actually has hatred for marginalized groups. They aren't politically correct because of actual raw hatred. These people inc…

You do realize that you’re in the second group, yeah? That’s wildly hateful. It’s the exact same discrimination-based position but on gender identity instead of race.

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#33

Post by liketochill »

melvyn2 wrote: post #17
incomingpain wrote: post #14

This PC cycle is interesting. Bill Maher and "politically incorrect" ended 20 years ago. Paving way for real time, but omg I'm feeling old. The PC cycle must exist, it will come and go in strength. Here's what happens when the cycle breaks. Tautological by definition, for 'politeness' to exist, you must have impoliteness. If you have a culture whose population has shifted more polite, like Canada, then democratically…

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-post-millennial/ When you have to cite trash like this, it weakens your argument considerably. Maybe cite a better source?

It was overturned on appeal:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-appeal-c...

I don’t think anyone should be allowed to undergo medical procedures or treatments to change genders until they are an adult, and I don’t think our school system should recommend kids change genders either. The advice should be wait until you are older and have had more time to think about it and life experience.

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#34

Post by boxmonster »

pandemicsoul wrote: post #18
boxmonster wrote: post #3

> "I'm very, very... I won't say dreading, but I'm, hmm, somewhat tentative about this whole thing That's the problem. Shaming and shunning is an ancient technique for punishing transgressors, but social media enables it to be applied too broadly. All transgressions are put on full blast. If I were a full on Nazi I would get the same treatment as I would if expressed that I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl. It…

> If I were a full on Nazi I would get the same treatment as I would if expressed that I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl. If that were true, either no one would be on social media except perfectly politically correct people, or everyone would be desperately trying to be perfectly politically correct. But instead, social media is filled with racist, homophobic, sexist jerks who constantly say things that hurt…

You're confusing Russian bots with real people. Real people who are racist homophobes have gone to ghettos like Gab because they've been chased off Twitter. Why can't I say I'm glad my son doesn't want to be a girl on Twitter under my real name without fearing for my life? I'm not saying I wouldn't support him becoming a girl. I'm saying I'm glad he's happy with who he is and it's easier for us all if he's a boy and likes being a boy.

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#35

Post by zimpenfish »

incomingpain wrote: post #24
melvyn2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-post-millennial/ When you have to cite trash like this, it weakens your argument considerably. Maybe cite a better source?

>When you have to cite trash like this, it weakens your argument considerably. Maybe cite a better source? https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/ca/20/00/2020BCCA0011.htm You never attempted to rebut the actual content because it is legitimate. I suspect you even followed the sourcing and read for yourself. Instead you're here just to attack the source? I'm not invested in post millennial, why are you actively going after…

> You never even attempted to rebut the actual content because it is legitimate.

I don't think anyone is disputing that this happened; it's more the egregious right-wing spin that you get from - what seem to be - the only sites to carry the story.

The framing of "Canada are jailing impolite people" is kinda disingenuous - Canada are actually jailing people who repeatedly disobey court orders and that is perfectly valid and sane, no?

Also the link you gave shows the "jailing impolite people" court specifically giving him latitude to make his appeal when they could just have tossed it - "[...] CD has on sundry occasions (including in his factum on appeal) failed to honour the court’s direction [...] CD has breached the confidentiality orders of the court [...] This court may, in its discretion, refuse to allow a party who has disregarded court orders to pursue or participate in an appeal: [...] However, given the importance of the issues raised in this appeal [...] we would not decline to hear from CD on the appeal."

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#36

Post by hansvm »

CrazedGeek wrote: post #32
deltasevennine wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's rather interesting from my perspective. There are actually three sides. Not two. Three. The first side is those who support political correctness. This side is singular. Simple. The other two sides are those who don't. This is where it gets interesting. One side that doesn't support it actually has hatred for marginalized groups. They aren't politically correct because of actual raw hatred. These people inc…

You do realize that you’re in the second group, yeah? That’s wildly hateful. It’s the exact same discrimination-based position but on gender identity instead of race.

> wildly hateful

To be clear, the bit where they mention biology exists, or the bit where they say they won't conform to other people's preferred language?

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#37

Post by AndrewOMartin »

Bakary wrote: post #7

Are there any examples of discussions or arguments having to do with political correctness that are actually thought-provoking? Seems like it's always the same ideas that come up whether the people involved are for it or not.

Most arguments come strongly down one side or another to the exclusion of any sane discussion. Allow me to quote a quote. From pseudalopex on July 3, 2020.

> Stewart Lee: "What is political correctness? It's an often clumsy negotiation towards a kind of formally inclusive language. And there's all sorts of problems with it. But it's better than what we had before."[1]

> [1] https://youtu.be/x_JCBmY9NGM

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727838

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#38

Post by melvyn2 »

liketochill wrote: post #33
melvyn2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-post-millennial/ When you have to cite trash like this, it weakens your argument considerably. Maybe cite a better source?

It was overturned on appeal: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-appeal-c... I don’t think anyone should be allowed to undergo medical procedures or treatments to change genders until they are an adult, and I don’t think our school system should recommend kids change genders either. The advice should be wait until you are older and have had more time to think about it and life experience.

I don’t see what that has to do with what I said; your views on trans procedures don’t mean anything about op’s malformed argument.

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#39

Post by syzar »

karaterobot wrote: post #21
tootie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's arguing from the most superficial level. That shaming people for things like use of language is ineffective at actually convincing them to change their minds. FWIW, I think he's actually wrong. Just by observing my kids and their school-aged peers, they are incredibly accepting of different types of people and lifestyles without a second thought. And they enforce "political correctness" of speech without…

It's not safe to generalize to all human behavior if your only sample is school-age kids. Kids behave differently than adults. Kids who are being observed behave differently than kids who aren't.

I don’t understand your point. The person you responded to isn’t generalizing to all people based off of school age kids. They noticed something about attitudes and speech in their kids versus when they were growing up and this observation comports with well a known fact. Namely, that regulation of speech can frame peoples’ thinking.

None of us are experts in everything and we need to try to make sense of things as we go about life. We all use examples/experiences in our lives to make general conclusions about the efficacy of policies.

Re: Why Stephen Fry is arguing against political correctness (2018)

#40

Post by aquaduck »

incomingpain wrote: post #14

This PC cycle is interesting. Bill Maher and "politically incorrect" ended 20 years ago. Paving way for real time, but omg I'm feeling old. The PC cycle must exist, it will come and go in strength. Here's what happens when the cycle breaks. Tautological by definition, for 'politeness' to exist, you must have impoliteness. If you have a culture whose population has shifted more polite, like Canada, then democratically…

I don't think politeness is quite the right concept here. Nobody's getting jailed for saying "fuck you", for example.
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