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Racism and Meritocracy

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Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#31

Post by raganwald »

Alex3917 wrote: post #16
raganwald wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And clearly, many african-americans and many women were not doing the steps needed to be talented enough to be able to make it big now. The most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them. You use words like "clearly" and "probably" but provide neither explanation nor evidence to back up your suppositions. Clearly, you expect your audience thinks exactly the way you do and w…

"You use words like 'clearly' and 'probably' but provide neither explanation nor evidence to back up your suppositions." Maybe because it would take all of 12 seconds of Googling to confirm that this is probably (at least partially) correct? We all know what the statistics say and what they don't say, so asking other people to do your homework for you in place of actually contributing something is lame. I meant grant…

I read an artcile suggesting that people believe certain things about race and bias but that the evidence is not there to support their beliefs. I read an artcile that suggests that people construct explanations to fit their world view. I'm merely pointing out that off-hand comments like this exactly fit the behaviour described in the article: Constructing explanations to fit a pre-existing set of beliefs.

I have a great deal of personal intest in the subject of race and bias, and I assure you that in twelve seconds of Googling, I will find enough conflicting evidence and explanations to suggest that the causes for bias are complex.

If I looked at a mountain of conflicting evidence with a predetermined belief, I'm sure I could find validation for whatever I already believed. So, I don't doubt for a moment that if you already agree with these statements, twelve seconds with Google will confirm our suspicions, just as I am sure that someone who vehemently disagrees with these statements will also find confirmation of their disagreement with twelve seconds of Googling.

UPDATE: To be clear, I'm not saying that Max is wrong: I don't live in the US, much less in SV. How should I know what American women and minorities are thinking? But what I am saying is that statements like this in a forum like this suggest not only that the speaker has preconceived beliefs about this, but that he also expects evryone else to share those beliefs.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#32

Post by Alex3917 »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #25
Alex3917 wrote: post #6

The main problem with this article that meritocracies are a mythological construct and not something that empirically exist. This probably shouldn't be much of a surprise, considering that merit is literally a religious concept. Try replacing every instance of the word merit with the word Jesus, and you'll see there is essentially no loss of meaning. Figuring out how to reduce bias in startup funding is important, bu…

"I attempt to hire based on merit in order to increase the probability that my startup will succeed and make me rich." "I attempt to hire based on Jesus in order to increase the probability that my startup will succeed and make me rich." "The guy I hired based on merit has certainly brought my startup closer to success - he's built several useful apps, caught plenty of bugs, and has kept our India operation running s…

"Doesn't make so much sense."

That's the point.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#33

Post by silentscope »

1. Minorities, in general, are less economically privileged. It's not causation, it's correlation. Nevertheless, this translates to worse schools, worse education, worse qualifications, worse job prospects. So before minorities are even able to apply, they're being selected against economically. For no fault of their own, they have worse chances than a non-minority.

2. When giving money, Eric Ries is right, you don't just go off empirical data. I want to give money to someone I relate to and feel comfortable evaluating. Someone I can understand. When doing that, I'm probably going to choose someone who's like me. If I'm a VC or angel, that probably means a white male. That goes, without saying, for founders. I want someone who has my back, not someone who feels like more of a wild card--I'm taking enough chances as it is starting the company.

So is it Racisim? Hell yes. Are these people Racist? No. It's not as if these words are sticky bombs that implicate anyone who gets near them with an indelible smear. The world is not a fair place--rain falls and the just and unjust alike. Let's call it like we see it.

Silicon Valley, just like anywhere in the world, is not a 100% meritocracy (that I think we can all agree on). What percent meritocracy is it? That's completely subjective. However, trying to convince yourself otherwise is an attempt to wash your hands of the problem while doing nothing to correct it.

What has to happen to solve this is, thankfully, what SV does best--take risks. That means hiring someone who isn't your ideal and seeing how they pan out. That means giving a second look at people that you normally would pass over--if only to keep your lifeblood fresh.

It doesn't mean ruining your company in a futile attempt to change the entire world--but it does mean doing things different, ie, hard.

Enough with the outrage. There is racisim/sexism in the world guys (yes, guys). It doesn't mean you're a racist. Let's man up to it.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#34

Post by Anechoic »

billpatrianakos wrote: post #22
philwelch wrote: post #7

One of the problems with racism in particular is that it has effects on people from birth. Past racism may have hurt their parents' socioeconomic prospects, forcing them to be born in an economically depressed ghetto with poor schools and gang violence. Even if there's no racism past that point, if their parents were prevented from ascending to the middle class, they won't pass on middle-class virtues emphasizing the…

Exactly! Maybe this is a small minority being extra loud. Thank you for saving me a lot of typing. Diversity for the sake of diversity hurts us all. You really do need to fix the underlying problems. I believe that there really are few qualified minority candidates for these jobs out there and there would be a lot more if we could fix some of the poverty and segregation that exists out there. Black people in this cou…

>Diversity for the sake of diversity hurts us all

I agree with this, but at the same time, a lack of diversity might (I stress might) indicate a problem with racism or (more likely these days) disparate impact and it's worth investigating and rectifying if need be. Just chalking it up to "well, I guess blacks/women/etc just aren't into tech" (not that you said that, but other posts here reflect that) may be ignoring a problem. If proper research shows that is the case, then fine, but let's not leap to assumptions.

>Black people in this country live in a separate America. They have their own culture as a result of past racism.

I see what you're trying to say here, and there are cultural/regional differences, but saying "[blacks] have their own culture" makes it sound a bit like an alien society. American black culture is just a subset of American culture - a random black guy from Chicago is going to have a lot more in common culturally with a white guy from Seattle compared to a black guy in sub-Saharan Africa.

>If we can extend White Privilege to everyone then we will have more diversity.

I'd rather just get rid of privilege totally, but that's a tall order. I do a lot of consulting for government agencies and in that world you really do get work based primarily on who you know. As a result a lot of my colleagues tend to be white males, not because of any sort of overt racism, but because the white males who head up government agencies tend to look within their circles of other white males for recommendations. Making the procurement process fairer and more reliant on merit will probably increase diversity in my market, and that's a good thing in terms of increasing opportunities for all.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#35

Post by [deleted] »

moldbug wrote: post #20
pg wrote: post #3

http://www.google.com/search?q=railsconf+audience&hl=en&...

Stephen Jay Gould on racism, 1984: "My visceral perception of brotherhood harmonizes with our best modern biological knowledge. Such union of feeling and fact may be rare indeed, for one offers no guide to the other (more romantic twaddle aside). Many people think (or fear) that equality of human races is a hope of liberal sentimentality probably squashed by the hard realities of history. They are wrong. This column…

[deleted]

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#36

Post by guard-of-terra »

raganwald wrote: post #31
Alex3917 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You use words like 'clearly' and 'probably' but provide neither explanation nor evidence to back up your suppositions." Maybe because it would take all of 12 seconds of Googling to confirm that this is probably (at least partially) correct? We all know what the statistics say and what they don't say, so asking other people to do your homework for you in place of actually contributing something is lame. I meant grant…

I read an artcile suggesting that people believe certain things about race and bias but that the evidence is not there to support their beliefs. I read an artcile that suggests that people construct explanations to fit their world view. I'm merely pointing out that off-hand comments like this exactly fit the behaviour described in the article: Constructing explanations to fit a pre-existing set of beliefs. I have a g…

Can you provide us with the model of what you think is happening?

Because "I think that something bad is happening but I don't know what" does not lead to a constructive discussion at all.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#37

Post by pjscott »

billpatrianakos wrote: post #26
sarchertech wrote: post #13

Isn't it possible that it has nothing to do with race, but with culture. From my experience most people who end up working in technology are or were at one point part of the geek subculture. You can't just look at Tech fields and say look it's all white and asian. It's not, it's predominantly a particular subset of white and asian men. That subset has it's own culture. Maybe there is some cultural reason that white a…

This has everything to do with culture. This becomes a big deal because of white guilt which is a result of White Privilege. Fact: there are far fewer minority hires working in our industry Fiction: the previous fact is a result of racism If that were the case maybe there's reverse racism in pro sports?

Evidence, please?

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#38

Post by _pius »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #36
raganwald wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an artcile suggesting that people believe certain things about race and bias but that the evidence is not there to support their beliefs. I read an artcile that suggests that people construct explanations to fit their world view. I'm merely pointing out that off-hand comments like this exactly fit the behaviour described in the article: Constructing explanations to fit a pre-existing set of beliefs. I have a g…

Can you provide us with the model of what you think is happening? Because "I think that something bad is happening but I don't know what" does not lead to a constructive discussion at all.

To the contrary, I think it is constructive to question sweeping and inflammatory claims backed up by little more than adverbs.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#39

Post by gruseom »

This article read to me like a concern troll (I'm just so concerned about diversity) overlying a passive-aggressive smear of the "I'm not saying" sort. As in: I'm not saying they're racist. Not necessarily. At least they say they aren't, and I take them at their word. At least until there's evidence that they're lying. Of course I have heard racist jokes.

Such language is unimpeachable on the surface and conveys something different underneath.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#40

Post by maxklein »

Anechoic wrote: post #23
maxklein wrote: post #10

I really fail to see how anyone can see racism in this. The current people trying to make it big in silicon valley now did not start the process now, they started 10 or 15 years ago when they started fiddling around with computers or learning to code or reading business books. And it's at that stage that the current audience was created, and not right now. The people applying and the selection is just a result of tha…

> The most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them. Is your stated reason ("it just did not occur to them") more likely than "they didn't have the opportunity to take those steps because of (economics/insert reason)"? A quick Google search give this link: http://www.brookings.edu/articles/1998/spring_education_darl... which indicated that in the 1990's, minority students…

I believe it did not occur to them. I doubt that asian students had much more resources 15 years ago.
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