Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too” • Hacker News Board

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#31

Post by blagie » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

If I were running a business ethically, I'd want to mute my criticism of politics, including fairly extreme ones. Partisanship is tearing the world apart. I want people with different viewpoints to interact. That's the only way to address them. If we don't work together and we don't shop together, we'll grow more polarized as a result. Democracy isn't a battle, and you win by convincing people, and not by beating them down or punishing them. That means interacting with them.

A business isn't a good venue for partisan change. It is an okay place for some types of politics (e.g. environmental sourcing), but not for explicitly partisan ones.

Ironically, if I were running a business efficiently, I'd probably want to pick one side and stick to it. If I sell to everyone, and I have competitors who focus on the blue tribe and ones who focus on the red tribe, they'll have a competitive advantage over me with any given consumer, and I'll be left with the very few people who aren't on either side.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#32

Post by DubiousPusher » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

> People have started to prioritize values over economic calculus again.

I'm actually pretty skeptical of this. I think that in most cases, when corporations are taking a "stand" it is because they have calculated that not taking a stand will be more financially damaging to their prospects.

I think the business school lectures that keep coming of late about not alienating consumers are skewd towards a time when

1) The American consumer was more homogenous.

2) Companies had less insight into who their customers were.

What's more, analyses like these seem to take for granted that companies risk alienating an equal number of customers taking any stand other than the center. But the consumer base is not the electorate. Conservative leaning Republicans make up less than half the electorate and their cultural preferences are generally held by well below the majority of people.

The strangest part of all of this talk is that it has exploded in the discourse at a time when the positions corporations are taking have generally been about issues facing minorities of race, sexual oreintation or gender orientation.

Yet dozens of large companies have taken conservative stands in recent decades. And while occasionally the media does question the ends of such stands, i.e. Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, there isn't this endless hand wringing about whether businesses ought to be taking culturally controversial positions. The most pointed part being that in a case like Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, Hobby Lobby ACTUALLY affected the lives of millions of people. Most of the things business bloggers grouse about of late is corporations throwing out some utterly token signal of wokeness.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#33

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:02 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #30

whimsicalism wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really find this a compelling critique, but beyond that - the suggestion that what is experienced in the average modern-day sweatshop making your shoe is akin to the historical chattel slavery of the middle passage is absurd and hyperbolic.

I was referring to forced labor from Uyghurs.

Even that, which I have not seen evidence that the median shoe is produced by Uyghur labor, is not comparable to the middle passage & chattel slavery.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#34

Post by zmgsabst » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:04 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #33

zmgsabst wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to forced labor from Uyghurs.

Even that, which I have not seen evidence that the median shoe is produced by Uyghur labor, is not comparable to the middle passage & chattel slavery.

In what way do you believe they are substantially different?

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#35

Post by faizshah » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

I think it’s almost the exact opposite, people respect Kapernick for his politics and activism and respect Lebron and MJ for their basketball. I have never heard of anyone respecting Michael Jordan for his politics.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#36

Post by mikkergp » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #26

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

Unless you are a politician, there is no reason for anyone to know your own personal political views. Any announcement of such views is signaling. It serves no other purpose.

How are you defining the word “signaling?” Are you being as definitive as you sound when you say serves no other purpose, or do you mean few other purposes? Some would say that celebrities have influence they can use to champion causes they believe in.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#37

Post by rayiner » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

Having different spheres of society, including some where we can interact without having to hash out our differences in values is necessary for a pluralistic society to exist in a peaceful way. America, in particular, was not created to be a homogenous place where we share values. It was created by a bunch of different religious fundamentalist groups who mostly wanted to be left alone. Indeed, these value-neutral interactions are often a great way to reduce conflict between different groups.

You're never going to win. You're not going to achieve final and total victory over white southerners. Even if you did, then you'll have to battle conservative Latinos, Asians, Muslims, etc. Look over at Muslims in France to see what happens you try to have diversity without a pluralistic social structure that allows groups to leave each other alone over value differences.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#38

Post by resters » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

On the other hand, commerce creates mutual dependency and reduces the willingness of participants to view their political enemies as completely evil, increasing the chances at political compromise and reducing the effectiveness of dehumanization propaganda from either side.

Political beliefs that are prejudiced are usually just people who haven't thought very deeply about the issue and find the emotional aspect of the political cause appealing. Dependency on members of politically opposed groups fosters empathy.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#39

Post by jmyeet » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

> Our desire to be in tribes feels natural.

People need to realize the consequences of this because it is the go-to tool for manipulating people. Creating division is creating tribes that people can belong to (and, by extension, another tribe they can blame for their problems). Racism, sexism, immigrants, homophobia and transphobia are obvious examples.

But there's a way more pervasive version of this: the myth of the middle class. The middle class is propaganda to create division between the completely made up middle class and the completely made up lower class.

> Workplace preferences see co-partisan workers paid more and promoted faster, despite at times being less qualified.

In tech we call this "culture fit" and it's pervasive and real.

> Republicans are more entrepreneurial. Conservatives start more firms than liberals ...

Is this adjusted for socioeconomic conditions?

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#40

Post by CharlesW » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

mikkergp wrote: post #2

> A series of surveys suggests that people who identify as conservative are more likely to want to do this by buying products marketed as “better,” while liberals are more drawn to messaging that emphasizes that the product is “different.”” this is interesting. I would be more drawn to messaging on "different", but mostly because I wouldn't trust a company to be an impartial judge on what is "better" - I would look t…

> I would be more drawn to messaging on "different", but mostly because I wouldn't trust a company to be an impartial judge on what is "better"…

Per the cited article, it's not about whether the product is better. According to the research (which seems vague to me), conservatives supposedly prefer products that signal that they personally are "better" or "superior".

"In our research, conservatives tended to differentiate themselves through products that show that they are better than others — for example, by choosing products from high-status luxury brands." https://hbr.org/2018/06/how-liberals-and-conservatives-shop-...