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I will now send this to beginner programmers

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Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#31

Projects are great but there's a deceptively challenging step in "formulate a small and feasible project idea". It's really hard to come up with a small and feasible project when you're a beginner. First, beginners don't know what's feasible. To a beginner all of programming is computer magic. There's not a lot of difference to a beginner between training a machine learning system for classifying different apples and…

> When I'd mentor underclassmen in college, they'd always say something like "let's build a mobile app that lets people create accounts for their pets and then uses machine learning to pair them with the best possible dog walker" as their "small and feasible" project.

Maybe they can mooch off some existing library or service. Yelp has an API which you could use to find dog walkers near you.

By the way, what's with the white on black monospace layout? Is that supposed to be cool or something?

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#32

Who are these beginner devs? Do people actually get a bachelors degree and proceed to not work in the field? Who are these people who take up a craft of creating software and need to be told to, create software, to get better at it? Presumably, people who get into this, already want to create stuff. If they have some other motivation, I don't want anyone telling them the 'secret' :)

>Who are these beginner devs?

Hi, I was one at one point. I'm an aerospace engineer, not a software guy. I merely dabble in coding and as such I don't know how to implement a quadtree or what Dijkstra's Algorithm is for. I've been coding off and on in some capacity since the early 2000s. I learned what closures were a year or two ago.

Not everyone who slings code has a comp sci/software eng degree.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#33
post #28
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Absolutely not. If you've actually done the research that leads the knowledge gatekeeper to ask these, these questions are easy for you to answer. Depending on the specifics of the question being asked, sure, I agree. But speaking only for myself, I abhor playing silly coy games of cat and mouse. I only come to chat rooms as a third/last resort exactly because so often you can't get a direct answer without satisfyin…

The people in the chatroom interact more with people who do not do this. They're trying to prevent wasting their own time, and leaving askers with precise answers to questions they didn't need answered, or sending them down the wrong path and fielding tons of opaque questions rather than finding out what's actually going on. I get that you don't want to waste your time, that's entirely reasonable... but by asking for…

[deleted]

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#34

This misses a big part of why books and lectures are much more effective than the author presents. In books and lectures a practitioner is offering you shortcuts and advice to avoid pitfalls and accelerate your learning in a polished well thought out way (if the author/instructor is good - big if). Sure, not everyone retains them. But for those who do they can practice by doing without banging their head against the…

Which lesson will you carry with you longer? The time you saw a presentation and the speaker warned against X, or the time that X bit you in the ass and you learned from experience why it’s a bad idea? Much of the detail you’re referring to can absolutely be learned valuably from a presentation, but folks with more experience can grok the lesson and reasons behind it much better. Presentation and book learning absent practical experience leads to things like everything being forced through an OOP lens for example.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#35

Who are these beginner devs? Do people actually get a bachelors degree and proceed to not work in the field? Who are these people who take up a craft of creating software and need to be told to, create software, to get better at it? Presumably, people who get into this, already want to create stuff. If they have some other motivation, I don't want anyone telling them the 'secret' :)

It happens a lot more than you'd think. Programming continues to be big money even if you're awful at it. To give a lousy comparison, imagine a story with a really lousy wizard; they can mess up/fail most of the time, but as long as a few times a year they make some pretty lights and woo their audience, probably they'll stay in favor, since it's still magic to everyone else. The failures likely are written off as "well it just happens like that sometimes."

The big issue is that even if new programmers understand the basics of programming and how to get a functional program, the discipline of identifying when the problem you're dealing which actually has well defined business rules is another craft altogether.

Blank Page Anxiety is just as real for code I suppose as it is for other types of writing, and having a system with structured "write something that does X Y Z" is often essential for a lot of people as it's the only way they know how to produce code.

As an example, we sometimes take in fresh from University trainees for some general datacenter/IT work who come from compsci/bootcamps, and they always say they want to develop this skillset more, but never write a single line of code (we stress heavily that this would be paid work you get time set aside for; usually no takers).

I'm not a programmer by trade, but I am very lazy and have gotten pretty good at figuring out when spending a week to write some tooling is less time than the total time over a year I would spend on a common task and write tooling accordingly.

Finding problem and developing a solution is not a skill that is out there by default, but it is fairly easy to learn. I like technical problems and hearing about them because it's fun to think about, and once some basic code got into my skillset, it was an additional solution to many of these problems. Listening to people describe their challenges is a great source of projects to practice on. The satisfaction of someone telling me "wow, you have no idea how much time this saves me every week" is a pretty good inspiration to keep learning and doing more; it's "production code" and the benefit is immediately apparent.

I never go out seeking a problem to code a solution for, but instead just like talking about technical things. Inevitably, a problem comes up that I think "how hard could that be to write a program for?" and a new project is born. (Sometimes the answer turns out to be "very hard", but those are really fun projects once I'm past the frustration :) )

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#36

This misses a big part of why books and lectures are much more effective than the author presents. In books and lectures a practitioner is offering you shortcuts and advice to avoid pitfalls and accelerate your learning in a polished well thought out way (if the author/instructor is good - big if). Sure, not everyone retains them. But for those who do they can practice by doing without banging their head against the…

Which lesson will you carry with you longer? The time you saw a presentation and the speaker warned against X, or the time that X bit you in the ass and you learned from experience why it’s a bad idea? Much of the detail you’re referring to can absolutely be learned valuably from a presentation, but folks with more experience can grok the lesson and reasons behind it much better. Presentation and book learning absent…

I said both together is best. You can glean insight from both. It's not an either/or.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#37
post #31

Projects are great but there's a deceptively challenging step in "formulate a small and feasible project idea". It's really hard to come up with a small and feasible project when you're a beginner. First, beginners don't know what's feasible. To a beginner all of programming is computer magic. There's not a lot of difference to a beginner between training a machine learning system for classifying different apples and…

> When I'd mentor underclassmen in college, they'd always say something like "let's build a mobile app that lets people create accounts for their pets and then uses machine learning to pair them with the best possible dog walker" as their "small and feasible" project. Maybe they can mooch off some existing library or service. Yelp has an API which you could use to find dog walkers near you. By the way, what's with th…

> Is that supposed to be cool or something?

Yes. All CSS is written the way it is either for aesthetics or for accessiblity (readability, etc).

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#38
post #2

>Chat room helpers often will try and lead you to discover the right answer yourself. It may feel frustrating, but play their game and you will learn. This is the discussion level of the pyramid. I fucking hate this so much. You spend hours trawling through Google search results and finally decide the answer isn't out there. Stack overflow is caustic so you don't want to ask there. Hop on IRC and ask "how do I do X?"…

Bonus points for playing the game only to discover when you reach the end that they were wrong all along.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#39
post #30

Projects are great but there's a deceptively challenging step in "formulate a small and feasible project idea". It's really hard to come up with a small and feasible project when you're a beginner. First, beginners don't know what's feasible. To a beginner all of programming is computer magic. There's not a lot of difference to a beginner between training a machine learning system for classifying different apples and…

I found the book Exercises for Programmers ( https://www.programmingbooks.dev/#exercises-for-programmers ) to be invaluable to help learn new languages and frameworks. Beginners seem to appreciate it as well. It’s just an ordered collection of exercises that starts easy and builds up to more challenging ones. I can’t overstate the power of this simple book.

It's 2 clicks to reach Amazon so you can make some referral money, but your site doesn't add any value. Might as well link to Amazon directly.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#40
"Create Project Idea" seems a rather unnecessary step. We already have a canon of CS exercises (sorts/searches, trees/graphs, parsers, ray-tracers, etc...)--all of which can be easily verified against their more battle-tested counterparts, and serve as superior preparation for the inevitable leetcode interview.
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