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How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

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Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#31

Post by anamax »

burgerbrain wrote: post #8
rick888 wrote: post #5

What about the increase in corruption in Mexico? An increase in corruption means more criminals can have drug businesses without being stopped by the cops. So, when more drug businesses pop-up, there will be less of a monopoly on the supply and the cost will go down over time. It's the same as any normal business. Even if we legalized all drugs tomorrow, it won't stop the violence. If the Mexican police were actually…

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

> There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there:

And there's a different reason why SWAT-cops in the US wear masks. The last time I pointed that out, someone mentioned that UK cops also wear masks at times.

Is there any place where the cops never wear masks?

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#32

Post by powertower »

feralchimp wrote: post #28

The most interesting point in this article (for me) was the argument that disruptive market pressure from methamphetamine (in particular, low barrier to entry on the production side) didn't just show "War on Drugs" activity to be ineffective; it showed it to be orthogonal to meaningful consequences. Production by cartels outpacing interdiction by law enforcement isn't nearly as convincing as an argument for ending Wo…

Ending the WoD?

That's only what, about one-third to one-half of all law enforcement (and the prison system)?

Do you realize how many jobs there are at stake here.

Of course I've got my tongue in my cheek, but you do see the problem with the problem of ending the war on drugs?

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#33

Post by nitrogen »

rick888 wrote: post #15
burgerbrain wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

I'm shocked at the number of closed-minded members of the HN community. If the answer to the violence in Mexico isn't: "let's legalize all drugs!", I get down voted. I wasn't a troll and explained my points, yet nobody wants to listen. It's sad. It's becoming more and more difficult to fight this mentality. I thought this was a community of intelligent people, yet I'm beginning to realize that this just isn't the cas…

Your third paragraph doesn't follow from the first two paragraphs. The first two paragraphs make the interesting conjecture that increased police corruption in Mexico lowers drug prices in the US. This is something potentially worth discussing.

The third paragraph asserts that legalizing drugs won't stop the violence, and that Mexican police aren't "doing their job." The first point contradicts the original article, and thus requires supporting evidence (e.g. quotations from the original article, followed by references to contradictory studies). The second point is simply unnecessarily accusatory, and is ignorant of the reality expressed by burgerbrain (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3228850).

Meta: you've commented (and I've responded) in this pattern before. You start with something that will be perceived as inflammatory by the typical HN crowd (e.g. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3172594), then follow up with a complaint about the votes you receive or the changing HN culture (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3172744). Maybe you're not trolling on purpose, but it sure looks like it.

As I said before (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3173159), you'd do a better job of conveying your message and be less likely to start a flame war if you restructured your arguments to be more appropriate to the audience -- present evidence, apply logical analysis, and draw a logical conclusion. State your assumptions (e.g. in this case if you believe that absolute societal order is more important than individual freedom, state up front that your argument depends on that). Most importantly, if you want others to change their minds, be willing to change yours if the argument goes the other way.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#36

Post by [deleted] »

powertower wrote: post #32
feralchimp wrote: post #28

The most interesting point in this article (for me) was the argument that disruptive market pressure from methamphetamine (in particular, low barrier to entry on the production side) didn't just show "War on Drugs" activity to be ineffective; it showed it to be orthogonal to meaningful consequences. Production by cartels outpacing interdiction by law enforcement isn't nearly as convincing as an argument for ending Wo…

Ending the WoD? That's only what, about one-third to one-half of all law enforcement (and the prison system)? Do you realize how many jobs there are at stake here. Of course I've got my tongue in my cheek, but you do see the problem with the problem of ending the war on drugs?

[deleted]

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#37

Post by enjalot »

maximusprime wrote: post #35

flagged. Never understood HNs interest in drugs. Hardly on topic is it.

did you read the article? It's all about how a traditional market (cocaine) got disrupted by startups (meth labs). With the lovely side effects of proving the War on Drugs as useless as we thought it was.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#38

Post by vacri »

rick888 wrote: post #15
burgerbrain wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

I'm shocked at the number of closed-minded members of the HN community. If the answer to the violence in Mexico isn't: "let's legalize all drugs!", I get down voted. I wasn't a troll and explained my points, yet nobody wants to listen. It's sad. It's becoming more and more difficult to fight this mentality. I thought this was a community of intelligent people, yet I'm beginning to realize that this just isn't the cas…

"If the Mexican police were actually doing their job, the criminals wouldn't be running the show."

This suggests a very simplistic understanding of the issues surrounding Mexican police. You're just mindlessly finger-pointing and didn't even hint at ways the Mexican police could counter some of the obstacles they face.

I hate the downmod system here as well - entirely anonymous and trivially easy to reduce someone else's comment - but I can see why your comment might have been downmodded.

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#39

Post by phaedon »

nate_meurer wrote: post #19
bestes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are those people? Politicians? (serious question)

One possibility: big financial institutions. Michael Rupert has done a lot of work in this area. IIRC, the illicit drug trade is the world's largest commodity market -- bigger than oil. That money has to go somewhere, and wherever it goes it is bound to be massively influential. Rupert argues that the links to big financial institutions are often quite clear, and he backs up his arguments with fairly prodigious resea…

Not just a possibility. Wachovia/Wells Fargo helped Mexican drug cartels launder money. Here's an article from back in April about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-d...

Re: How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime

#40

Post by vacri »

anamax wrote: post #31
burgerbrain wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think would happen to a Mexican police officer and his family if he tried to simply "just do his job"? There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AG531_MEXICO_G_...

> There is a reason the police are the ones wearing ski masks down there: And there's a different reason why SWAT-cops in the US wear masks. The last time I pointed that out, someone mentioned that UK cops also wear masks at times. Is there any place where the cops never wear masks?

As I understand it, regular beat cops sometimes wear masks in Mexico, which doesn't happen in safer countries, not just special operations. In my brief visit to mexico (an afternoon in Nogales, pretty safe) I didn't notice any cops, but I did see trucks with soldiers in them, probably a third of whom had masks on.

I think the issue is more around the regularity with which authoroties have to conceal their identity.

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