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Getting started with decentralized identity

nathangould.com

31–40 of 67 posts

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#31
post #18

Are blockchain people physically incapable of speaking plainly? Its hard to cut theough the buzzword bullshit, but this sounds like they reinvented PKI and added 10 billion layers of indirection. Is there more to it than that? Or is this really just taking the latest technogies of the 1990s, and explaining it badly so people think they have invented something new?

> Are blockchain people physically incapable of speaking plainly?

While I agree that blockchain technologies can quickly fall in bullshit buzzwords, there is still food for thoughts here, but you have to be somewhat familiar with the subject to understand it.

Let me try to explain it from software engineer to software engineer.

The core of web 5 is "self sovereign identity" . That means you (the user) gets to be in control of authentication, identification, and user data access and lifecycle.

Take a typical web 2.0 worflow:

- You sign up on a website / app by providing mail, password, and some other user data like address, phone, etc.

- The website / app stores your information + their own metadata (admin flag, purchase history, whatever) in their database somehow.

- When you log in, you are given a JWT which basically is just a subset of the data you provided + the website metadata, along with a signature to ensure you're not forging all that.

- The website / app have you perform API calls providing the JWT.

The whole idea of self sovereign identity is that you don't need the website / app to own any of your data and metadata in the first place.

If your data is stored in a place _you_ control, and where _you_ can delegate read access to them, as well as the capability for them to enhance it with their metadata that they can sign, then you can pretty much get rid of them storing anything at all about you.

This place where you store your data is a blockchain dedicated for that purpose. You can have all your information stored there, encrypted, and just encrypt for their public key what you are willing to share with them. If you don't want them to know you anymore, just remove the version of your data encrypted for them.

If they need to store additional metadata on you (say an "is_admin" flag), have them store it in your wallet and sign it.

You can pretty much see it as a blockchain of persistent JWT claims that you control. These claims would be accessed through a browser plug-in a-la-metamask.

The overall idea is that by switching to this model, websites / apps will become 99% front-end only, APIs will switch to smart contracts, and you will have total control of your data.

Hope that clarifies a bit the jargon of the article.

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit on at least a couple fronts. First, even when people strongly have their real identity tied to their digital or other activities, it amazingly often does nearly nothing at all to stop them from all kinds of spammy abuse, fraud, lying, trolling and all sorts of bad behavior. This happens across the board, world-wide in any non-personal social or digital setting. Secondly, I'd argue that the ability to "decent…

even when people strongly have their real identity tied to their digital or other activities, it amazingly often does nearly nothing [...] Is that based on any particular example? Off the top of my head, I can think of several mechanisms by which tying a pseudonym to a real identity could deter or address malicious behavior: law suit, jail time, loss of collateral, permanent ban of a human being from a service, etc.…

Connecting your digital identity opens you up to stalking, data mining, identity fraud and a host of other things not government related.

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#33
post #7

As I said 48 days ago when this last came up on YC, the classic "Why your idea for stopping spam sucks" list applies.[1] Go re-read that and you'll see the same identity problems and proposed solutions. If people can create and abandon identities cheaply. they will use those identities for annoyance or fraud. Hence spam, robocalls, etc. This is also why the "federated" social networks are not too useful. On the other…

Urbit solves it by making the ID scarce with a cheap, but non-zero cost that makes spam prohibitively expensive. It also makes blocking and moderation easy and the pseudonyms accrue reputation.

Yeah...wonder why it wasn't mentioned...

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#34
post #2

The digital identity infrastructure space is already crowded, with players like Apple, Google and Microsoft working with governments and institutions, because they own the devices we use, and the entire point is that people will be able to use their phones to identify themselves everywhere. Apple ID is already like 90% there, despite having to trust Apple with your personal data, which nobody has a problem with. The…

> Blockchains are slow and expensive.

Yeah. In every other situation, people try to improve the speed and efficiency of software.

In this case, it’s like people prefer to do bubble sort even if there is quick sort available. And then sell it as the best thing ever invented.

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the idea is that I can now take this cookie, show it to a third party and the third party can verify the credential's validity. Or you know, like oauth. Or if you want to really play up the credential angle, how tls client certificates work, if anyone would ever use them.

Perhaps TLS client certificates are unpopular because pretty much everyone uses some sort of anti-ddos or caching server in front of their services (cloud load balancers, fastly, akamai, cloudflare) so any TLS client certificate authentication and validation has to be baked into the service[0] (another possibility could be the service encoding the client's information and shipping it to the origin server via headers)…

TLS client certs were unpopular way before external TLS termination became popular.

Besides, it would be fairly easy to implement at a cdn layer. Just give it a list of valid CAs, and have it set some header.

The real reason is that UI challenges for client certs are really hard. You can see it in the fact that people actual do use client certs in server to server communication (e.g. like between cache and backend)

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

even when people strongly have their real identity tied to their digital or other activities, it amazingly often does nearly nothing [...] Is that based on any particular example? Off the top of my head, I can think of several mechanisms by which tying a pseudonym to a real identity could deter or address malicious behavior: law suit, jail time, loss of collateral, permanent ban of a human being from a service, etc.…

Connecting your digital identity opens you up to stalking, data mining, identity fraud and a host of other things not government related.

Sure, but a pseudonymous digital identity can provide decent protection for those problems. If government wants the user's personal details, that's different, since, even if the information were never stored on computer, one could obtain it via court order – but the ability to do that is partly the point.

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#37
post #31
post #18

Are blockchain people physically incapable of speaking plainly? Its hard to cut theough the buzzword bullshit, but this sounds like they reinvented PKI and added 10 billion layers of indirection. Is there more to it than that? Or is this really just taking the latest technogies of the 1990s, and explaining it badly so people think they have invented something new?

> Are blockchain people physically incapable of speaking plainly? While I agree that blockchain technologies can quickly fall in bullshit buzzwords, there is still food for thoughts here, but you have to be somewhat familiar with the subject to understand it. Let me try to explain it from software engineer to software engineer. The core of web 5 is "self sovereign identity" . That means you (the user) gets to be in c…

> then you can pretty much get rid of them storing anything at all about you.

But why would they want to?

If i understand, the premise of this idea is basically that we don't trust service providers with our data/to have our best interests at heart.

So we make a complex system where service providers (for the sake of argument, i dont know if i buy this) must respect our wishes.

Which raises the question, why would they?

Either a) service providers are good, and this system is pointless.

Or b) service providers are evil and they wouldn't use it and/or would subvert the intention.

> If you don't want them to know you anymore, just remove the version of your data encrypted for them.

Assuming they dont store it. Can't unring a bell.

> The overall idea is that by switching to this model, websites / apps will become 99% front-end only, APIs will switch to smart contracts, and you will have total control of your data.

Idk what y'all are smoking over there, but its clearly the good stuff.

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#39
post #37
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are blockchain people physically incapable of speaking plainly? While I agree that blockchain technologies can quickly fall in bullshit buzzwords, there is still food for thoughts here, but you have to be somewhat familiar with the subject to understand it. Let me try to explain it from software engineer to software engineer. The core of web 5 is "self sovereign identity" . That means you (the user) gets to be in c…

> then you can pretty much get rid of them storing anything at all about you. But why would they want to? If i understand, the premise of this idea is basically that we don't trust service providers with our data/to have our best interests at heart. So we make a complex system where service providers (for the sake of argument, i dont know if i buy this) must respect our wishes. Which raises the question, why would th…

>> then you can pretty much get rid of them storing anything at all about you.

> But why would they want to

Well the overall premise is that if they don't need to, it will become harder to justify to your users. The second premise is that legislation can be put in place to forbid the ad hoc storage of PIIs.

Europe already has in place legislation to allow users to have read and removal access to their PIIs stored by third parties, it does not seem inconceivable that a logical next step would be to actually enforce that users have real ownership of their PIIs by forbidding providers to store them at all.

> Either a) service providers are good, and this system is pointless.

Not really. The issue with personal data is not just good/bad. There is a spectrum in between.

You can be the best intentioned provider and still get hacked. When you think about it, it actually makes no sense to trust any service provider with your data considering 99% of them are not going to be able to properly store and secure them. Why not have a system that is secure by default.

And then there's the whole gray zone of what happens if the company sells your data, exploits it internally, gets bought by another company, changes EULA, shares with her parent company, etc.

> Idk what y'all are smoking over there, but its clearly the good stuff.

Try to be more open about it and don't get dragged on by the anti crypto trend blindly.

Sure there are a bunch of ridiculous things out there, but there's also actually good ideas.

Re: Getting started with decentralized identity

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit on at least a couple fronts. First, even when people strongly have their real identity tied to their digital or other activities, it amazingly often does nearly nothing at all to stop them from all kinds of spammy abuse, fraud, lying, trolling and all sorts of bad behavior. This happens across the board, world-wide in any non-personal social or digital setting. Secondly, I'd argue that the ability to "decent…

even when people strongly have their real identity tied to their digital or other activities, it amazingly often does nearly nothing [...] Is that based on any particular example? Off the top of my head, I can think of several mechanisms by which tying a pseudonym to a real identity could deter or address malicious behavior: law suit, jail time, loss of collateral, permanent ban of a human being from a service, etc.…

I can think of many (admittedly anecdotal but I think valid enough) examples. Just off the top of my head, Facebook is full of people who plainly use their real name and operate their account within the context of their real, in-person or professional circles of friends. Despite this, many of these people regularly place comments or posts that are blatantly rude, racist, spammy, fraudulent and so forth. It's a very common phenomenon and with little repercussions in most contexts. Social media and many other digital media forums are also loaded with people who regularly defraud others in ambiguous ways with little to no legal consequences. Imagine, if you go to a typical city police station in, say, nearly any North American city and report a non-violent property crime, the police will often straight up tell you that aside from filing a report, they'll do next to nothing else. Now imagine how much less they usually care in the case of legally grey cases of digital fraud below a certain genuinely large or frequently repeated amount. Even if you have a person's completely real name to point to, many criminal investigators just won't care, it won't be worth their time unless it's part of a massive pattern, involves lots of money, or affected someone with major political or social clout. A lack of anonymity means nothing in these contexts. At the same time, a lack of anonymity does indeed expose many other people to all kinds of unfair abuse that they have little recourse against.

As for your second point: The topic of dis/misinformation is a whole separate can of worms that I won't go into in detail right now, aside from saying that it's loaded with assumptions and shifty, politically charged definitions of what really is disinformation. This aside from the fact that I sincerely believe people have a right to share even stupidly mistaken opinions of X or Y, regardless of what certain self-proclaimed intellectual betters think should be allowed. With regard to your other points about crime and harassment, I refer you to my point above: firmly verified IDs barely dent these things. However they definitively do open people up to surveillance, censorship and the illegal leaking of vast troves of sensitive personal data from hacks of "secure" ID verification systems run by governments and corporations. To me, the trade-off is clearly in favor of giving people a basic right to hiding their real identity in all but absolutely necessary situations..

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