How do screen readers work with likes of google, facebook and linkedin (aka websites that mostly profit from scrapping public web)?
For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
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Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#32I've been thinking about this lately for a SDL project I'm working on. So far there doesn't seem to be any guide to doing accessibility from scratch. My plan is to test with the Orca screen reader from Gnome.
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wow. I don't know anything about screen readers or how blind people use the web, but I'm surprised that a strictly text website like HN would be inaccessible to blind people.
It uses table layouts and has no skip links.
Sina is great, it's a shame the device output is so much louder than his microphone in the video.
I didn't hear him mention the lack of skip links on HN's home page (skip links are more for sighted keyboard users than blind screen reader users like him), I did hear him mention that the stories on the home page are not headings. Yes, a screen reader can navigate link to link but there are ~7 non-story links between each story link so being able to navigate from story to story as headings would be really helpful and semantically accurate.
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#34Increasingly I think the screenreader/ARIA proposition of navigating a (linearized ordering of) elements on a 2D page is fundamentally limiting for blind users. The web needs a more robust model of application state from which text, audio, and GUI representations can be derived. Our applications clearly structure "objects" and their "methods" under the hood, and it should be possible to present these more directly to…
It has to be linearized because hearing, and time itself, are one-dimensional.
Screen readers can represent nesting of content, going into one element and coming back out, Apple's VoiceOver in particular uses this concept. It may be conceptually helpful in some instances or to some people but often it just makes things more cumbersome to navigate.
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#35These tools seem like such a lazy solution to something as important as accessibility.
Well, see, you're on to something: these tools exist as a litigation defense layer: large enough targets sometimes get ADA lawsuit threats. They frequently come with an offer to settle. When you use something like Accessibe, you provide enough of a plausible effort that it's not worth it for the litigious sort to waste their time with you, so they move to other lower hanging fruit. None of this, you'll note, is parti…
They're not even good for keeping lawsuits at bay.
https://adrianroselli.com/2020/06/accessibe-will-get-you-sue...
The ADA lawsuit trolls who are quick to settle for money tend to go after smaller businesses presumably because they lack the resources to fight in court, to actually fix the problems, and because there are a lot more of them than large businesses.
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#36You just can't expect a script to make a website accessible. Accessibility cannot be fully automated. Sure there are tools that can highlight some issues, and provide guided review to help find others, but there's no panacea.
Instead, start with a UI library that already applies accessibility best practices, such as Material UI [0], then follow the guidance provided for each component (a library can't do everything for you, despite what many claim), as well as applying accessibility best practices to the site as a whole. Only then apply automated review, and manual review by accessibility experts, fixing issues raised at each stage.
Disclosure – I contribute to Material UI.
[0] https://mui.com/material-ui/react-text-field/#accessibility
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a descendant of a totally blind man, but with like 20/12 vision myself, I just have to agree. Dude eyes are the ultimate threat detector, they're essential, and there's so many people trying to take advantage of vision impairment. They need it to be perfect stereotypical blindness to give a single unit of fuck about the problem, no compensating for limitations, all or nothing. Never look from another point of view…
Capsule amounts differ everywhere, so it's easier if you can share the actual milligrams. Also, there's this 2018 NIH study that says fish oil is no better than a placebo for dry eyes: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/omega-3s-fish-...
I witness with my eyesight it's dramatically better than a placebo, challenge dechallenge rechallenge.
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a descendant of a totally blind man, but with like 20/12 vision myself, I just have to agree. Dude eyes are the ultimate threat detector, they're essential, and there's so many people trying to take advantage of vision impairment. They need it to be perfect stereotypical blindness to give a single unit of fuck about the problem, no compensating for limitations, all or nothing. Never look from another point of view…
Curious, what brand of fish oil, and after how many days did you notice an effect on your vision eating "six softgels a day"?
Mmm...it's not that fast...like three weeks? And it is already recommended for that, my difference of opinion is in the quantity. It came down to reading an article about a man with heavy no talking no walking brain damage. He got 15 a day and recovered in six months.
My favorite is UP, Ultra Pure brand, but I can't find it outside Chile. In US, Nature's Bounty, just anything with very low amounts of mercury cadmium and pcb's.
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#39Karl Groves, the "Web Accessibility Viking" wrote a great piece* naming several "accessibility-overlay" services that make matters much worse... As a result he is getting sued into oblivion by said company...
*People with disabilities hate overlays yet an overlay company is suing its critic, now snubbed from the internet (article scrubbed from his site). https://karlgroves.com/people-with-disabilities-hate-overlay...
Re: For blind internet users, the fix can be worse than the flaws
#40Are there any positive examples of popular websites which are also well designed in terms of accessibility? I don't think that accessibility and modern design have to be at odds, but it would be interesting to see how this is achieved in practise.
I’ve worked at both the bbc and ft.com and we put quite a bit of effort into accessibility. I think we were pretty successful but others are probably on a better position to judge