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Keet – P2P Video and Text

keet.io

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Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#31

Post by klabb3 »

On hacker news I'd suggest sharing some technical choices, otherwise you leave people to guess. Anyway:

1. Looks like you're not using libp2p, why? (Not accusing, just wondering)

2. What is your fallback mechanism when hole punching isn't possible? Relay nodes?

3. Follow-up: how do you ensure an acceptable QoS (latency, bandwidth, time to peer-discovery etc) for that fallback mechanism?

4. How do you handle many participants? Amount of chatter scales n^2 by default in p2p.

5. What application bundler are you using (eg electron)?

6. Bonus: what technical challenges were hardest? Any big unsolved problems?

Thank you.

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#32

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

> Holepunch is a platform for creating apps that don’t use any servers whatsoever.

Ew; punny and/or topical names are fine, but just grabbing a term of art and using it for your product is 1. anti-social behaviour, and 2. not even a good idea selfishly, since you'll have an awful time trademarking it.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_punching_%28networking%29)

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#33

Post by [deleted] »

skyfaller wrote: post #26
tossl568 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is an open, permissionless financial network that uses a fraction of a % of the world's energy a scam that will destroy life on Earth? Uninformed, hyperbolic statements about Bitcoin is a sign you're incapable of basic understanding of anything.

To be explicit, one problem with Bitcoin's energy use is that it has the potential to consume any excess energy-producing capacity that we free up by making technology more energy efficient. It could use any fossil fuel-powered energy production that otherwise might be obsoleted by green energy sources. Bitcoin and other PoW blockchains add a strong financial incentive to use all available energy production capacity…

[deleted]

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#34

Post by skyfaller »

djschnei wrote: post #29
skyfaller wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans benefit from using energy, but our current energy systems release terrifying amounts of greenhouse gases. Continued global heating will involve mass death, and a great deal of human suffering along the way. Energy use is necessary to support human life, but limiting energy use is vital to avoid climate catastrophe. It's not a fun problem to have, but you can't wish it away by saying "but people need and enjoy…

You are wrong. You will have incredibly realtime examples of how dangerous this way of thinking is when winter hits Europe this year. Energy is life. It's not a "nice to have" or something people "enjoy".

What part of "Energy use is necessary to support human life" did you not understand when I said it?

Do you understand that heat waves, flooding, forest fires, and other extreme weather events will interfere with the delivery of energy? Do you understand that water shortages will interfere with the delivery of energy (e.g. nuclear power plants need water for cooling)? Do you understand that resource wars will interfere with the delivery of energy? Do you understand that climate change preventing food from growing will interfere with the survival of the people who deliver the energy?

Of course energy is vital to human existence, I recommend e.g. Energy and Civilization by Vaclav Smil to anyone who wants to understand this in great detail: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/energy-and-civilization But the climate crisis will interfere with energy production and delivery, just as it interferes with everything else that humans want or need to do. Refusing to reduce energy usage voluntarily will result in involuntary reduction in energy usage as systems fail.

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#35

Post by upupandup »

In my experience your P2P experience is only as good as the connections the slowest/unreliable peer node. It works well in spurts but wen you start adding more participants the performance degrades and becomes unstable.

its not really a solvable problem with just clever networking but something that AI needs to take over in terms of upping and filling in the gaps from the network limitations (resolution upping, deepfake like techniques)

i'm still under the impression that SFU And centralized servers is the only way to deliver massive scaling and consistent performance and even this is not perfect.

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#37

Post by kixiQu »

thegagne wrote: post #24

More background info: https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hyperc... https://www.bitdegree.org/crypto/news/bitfinex-hypercore-tet... I think the use of P2P like DHT is very smart, but like others I am wary due to the source. As best I can tell: Hypercore = company without a website? I can't find one. Holepunch = platform made by Hypercore - again no website? Funded by Tether and Bitfinex Keet = First…

Hypercore: protocol, predates the Tether/Bitfinex stuff, I'd argue neutral. The Beaker Browser work was incredibly cool IMO. Website: https://hypercore-protocol.org/

The other stuff: wary.

(e.g. https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hyperc... seems to me to be wrong about Hypercore being a "company")

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#38

Post by skyfaller »

djschnei wrote: post #28
skyfaller wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be explicit, one problem with Bitcoin's energy use is that it has the potential to consume any excess energy-producing capacity that we free up by making technology more energy efficient. It could use any fossil fuel-powered energy production that otherwise might be obsoleted by green energy sources. Bitcoin and other PoW blockchains add a strong financial incentive to use all available energy production capacity…

> that we free up by making technology more energy efficient This is 100% a fake problem that clearly does not exist if you understood anything about the energy market. Civilization is at an increasing rate consuming more electricity. Surely, someone who believes carbon emissions are destroying the planet would agree we need to electrify everything. Bitcoin consuming and therefore monetizing stranded and/or temporary…

Bitcoin doesn't discriminate between green energy sources and fossil fuel energy sources. It encourages production/consumption of fossil fuels just as much as it encourages production/consumption of green energy sources. There's no particular reason to believe that Bitcoin will accelerate electrification.

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#39

Post by skyfaller »

tossl568 wrote: post #30
skyfaller wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be explicit, one problem with Bitcoin's energy use is that it has the potential to consume any excess energy-producing capacity that we free up by making technology more energy efficient. It could use any fossil fuel-powered energy production that otherwise might be obsoleted by green energy sources. Bitcoin and other PoW blockchains add a strong financial incentive to use all available energy production capacity…

Bitcoin miners flock to where the energy is cheapest, where it can't be used for anything else, namely stranded renewables. If the energy source can be used for anything else, it is probably too expensive for Bitcoin miners, who are a buyer of last resort. Bitcoin provides a financial incentive for infrastructure build out for these stranded energy sources. You've made your arguement for "planet destroying", now why…

One aspect I must mention is Bitcoin miners flock to where energy is cheapest for them, not taking into account negative externalities. This is why you see miners attacking CI services to try to use them for mining crypto: free energy is the best deal, even if it is costly to someone else: https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/26/Cryptocurrency-is-a-disas...

Of course, the climate crisis is caused in large part by capitalism failing to deal with negative externalities, so one could argue that Bitcoin is just another facet of our corrupt system privatizing benefits and making the public bear the costs. But nevertheless this is a fundamental flaw in arguments that Bitcoin miners only farm where energy is "cheapest".

As for why it's a scam, it's hard to summarize, but I'll try: cryptocurrency is not currency, not decentralized, and not private. https://jacobin.com/2022/01/cryptocurrency-scam-blockchain-b...

Re: Keet – P2P Video and Text

#40

Post by djschnei »

skyfaller wrote: post #34
djschnei wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. You will have incredibly realtime examples of how dangerous this way of thinking is when winter hits Europe this year. Energy is life. It's not a "nice to have" or something people "enjoy".

What part of "Energy use is necessary to support human life" did you not understand when I said it? Do you understand that heat waves, flooding, forest fires, and other extreme weather events will interfere with the delivery of energy? Do you understand that water shortages will interfere with the delivery of energy (e.g. nuclear power plants need water for cooling)? Do you understand that resource wars will interfer…

> limiting energy use is vital to avoid climate catastrophe.

This is what I have issue with. Energy use benefits humanity. Full stop.

If you said civilization needs bananas to survive and flourish, then some good samaritan came along and said "I will always buy any leftover bananas you can't sell no matter where or when you grow them", you would get many more banana farms, people experimenting with new banana growing/harvesting technology, etc. It's an undeniable benefit if your goal is to produce more bananas.

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