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Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

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Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#31

Post by lwswl »

capableweb wrote: post #2

I love the Internet Archive and frequently donate to them (2 times so far this year). What I'd love to see improved is the ability to be less "fragile". Currently it's all located in the US and they have a huge focus on the US, both technically and politically. But why not try to replicate it all over the world? There seems to have been some smaller efforts inside the Internet Archive to make it more decentralized, b…

It would be harder to focus all the blame, and the hand of the law, on a single institution.

Currently, only the IA will fall, and anyone who benefited from their seeming folly will have no issues.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#33

Post by daniel_reetz »

wmf wrote: post #11
samwillis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, they should have reached out to the closed public libraries and come to an agreement where they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries. It would have been an incredible initiative that could have become sustainable well past the pandemic.

they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries That would probably have triggered the same lawsuit. You cannot rent digital copies of physical works no matter how much sense it makes.

This is not as legally clear cut as you make it seem. There's plenty of legal discussion around the issue of format shifting books.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#34

Post by nemacol »

COGlory wrote: post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

I have it in my head that playing fast and loose with the law is just how things are done. I think the problem here is Internet Archive is not making heaps of money for shareholders and (arguably) causing these publishes to lose money.

An example is Uber 'invents' smartphone taxi's and says the laws of employment and taxi's don't apply to them. They make a ton of money and here we are.

Maybe I am being overly cynical.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#35

Post by pavon »

metadat wrote: post #15
COGlory wrote: post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

This wasn't about preserving archives, or distributing old works that should have been in the public domain by now, or even "lending" out digital copies backed by physical copies they owned. This was about distributing unlimited digital copies of current works (some published just the year before). Legally and morally I cannot see this as any different or better than blatant copyright piracy.

The Internet Archive does a lot of good things, most clearly legal, others gray areas that I think should be legal. This stunt was different.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#36

Post by kup0 »

I agree with the Internet Archive on philosophical/ideological grounds and support their actions overall...

_However_, they have to operate under the same BS everyone else does, so it seems naïve for them to take reckless actions that could put them in this position

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#37

Post by 999900000999 »

I still don't understand what compelled IA to blatantly violate copyright law like that.

From what I can tell, even buying a book and then digitally lending it out, isn't exactly a human right. Regardless, IA was doing that without issue for years.

IA then decided they were going to "lend out"as many books as they wanted. To

What exactly is surprising here ?

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#38

Post by liquidise »

metadat wrote: post #15
COGlory wrote: post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

> The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders

That genuinely may be so, but "this law i broke shouldn't exist" is not an advisable legal defense.

Also, what you call "rent seeking" others would call "return on investment". I do think there is a grey area here, "fair use" being one example, but i think summarily discounting distributors and publishers wholesale doesn't help your stance.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#39

Post by coldpie »

COGlory wrote: post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

Put yourself in their shoes at the beginning of the pandemic. Libraries close, schools close, students have to stay home from classes, physical production and shipping slows down or stops, people are losing their livelihoods, and no one knows how this is going to shake out. Meanwhile you're sitting on a massive wealth of human knowledge, and you're also a bit of an idealist and you recognize the vast harm our 1970s-era infinite-copyright policy has had over the past 50 years on our collective education and culture. Maybe there will be consequences down the road, but today, right now, you can help make peoples' days and futures a little less shitty.

I dunno, man. It's hard for me to imagine being in that position and not pressing the button. I imagine the archive (and their lawyers) went into the decision with eyes fully open. I doubt they had zero contingency plans for the worst case.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#40

Post by PragmaticPulp »

xwdv wrote: post #16
COGlory wrote: post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

Ask for forgiveness not permission if you want to innovate.

This is becoming one of the most abused sayings in the startup world.

In this case “ask for forgiveness” could mean going out of business in the process. You can only afford to “ask for forgiveness” and break the law if you’re willing to lose it all.

Why the IA did this as part of their long established archive business instead of a separate venture is beyond me.

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