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“The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

grumpygamer.com

31–40 of 280 posts

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#31
post #14

Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I've seen it on HN also. Someone creates a thing, and then people pour out of the woodwork to lump horrible criticism. No one is asking for blind praise for what they create, but surely there's a middle ground between…

It's more than gamers as you notice, it's the whole 'self-reinforcing internet cycle' - if the first reaction is X, that will be amplified tremendously as everyone piles on to agree with X.

This goes for both for and against, but against is usually easier. Famous examples include Dropbox (here), iPod (Slashdot), etc.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#32
I like Ron Gilbert. I don't like all of the games he's worked on but I like most of them. I think it's great that he's making this new game and he's doing it how he wants to. I will likely check it out when it's released and there's a good chance that I'll enjoy it.

all of that said, I have a hard time understanding this situation. when you've been making games for decades and you've watched the Internet grow from nothing in that time, how can you possibly release a trailer for your upcoming game showing an art style that you don't have to hire a focus testing company to tell you that the Internet will knee-jerk react negatively to... without knowing that there would be The Usual, Expected Amount of "toxic" backlash? how could you not see this coming, and why would you then go on to take it personally?

I fully understand the human angle where like, if I released a trailer for a game I was working on tomorrow, and for whatever reason the Internet Hate Machine started churning against me, I would have a very hard time handling it, because I have never been in a situation like that before, and the human mind is ill-equipped to deal with the onslaught of criticism, both fair and over-the-top, that is just part and parcel of putting things on the Internet these days. in the past ~15 years of the indie game scene there have been countless examples of this exact scenario playing out time and time again, and I have complete and total empathy for anyone in that situation—it has to be hard.

but this is a guy who's made both games that are considered classics, as well as games that have been critically panned. why is he taking the perfectly predictable response to the art style shown in this trailer so personally?

the only conclusion I can reach—and it's a mighty cynical one—is that this must be part of the planned PR cycle for the game. the game was announced earlier this year, as being planned to be released later this year, meaning that at the time of that announcement, the art style was almost certainly already settled upon... yet the decision was made to withhold from revealing the art style at that point in time. now, awhile later, we get a trailer that shows and demonstrates the art style. again, the Internet's reaction writ large was wholly predictable. now Ron Gilbert says this wholly predictable reaction makes him sad and makes him not want to share any more of the game until release, and various "journalists" and commentators in the space get to write up think-pieces about the event heralding this act—not sharing any more of your game until it's released—as one of moral bravery in the face of the innately toxic and reprehensibly evil Internet Comment Section saying mean things about the latest game from a respected and celebrated creator of some of the most cherished classics in the history of computer gaming. Entitled Toxic Gamers get shamed for being Toxic and Entitled and Gamers, as though we haven't learned anything over the past 20 years about how anonymous comment sections inherently work in the everyone-has-an-Internet-connected-smartphone-in-their-pocket-at-all-times contemporary society we now live in. blogs get something juicy to write about. everyone wins!

is there any reason for me to not believe that some version of the above is what happened here? or am I completely off-base here and perhaps Ron Gilbert is just mentally stuck in the 90s, where your publisher sends promotional prerelease screenshots to a gaming magazine and you don't have to directly see any criticism, as someone else at the company reads all the (e- and snail) mail for you? or something else?

tl;dr I can't understand getting mad at the Internet for being the Internet in 2022, it will never get better, if anything it will only get worse—this is the price we collectively had to pay when we decided everyone should be online at all times.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#33
Monkey Island was cutting edge technology when I first played it as a child in the early 1990s, I fell in love with it. Why would anyone expect that Ron would create a pixel-art, retro-style game? Ron articulated this line of reasoning. He is the creator and has every right to select the style that he desires.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#34
I feel even in gaming, the customer is always right at the end of the day. Unless we are talking about making games just for the sake of it & then throwing them away, but I suspect not.

That said, most of the time it is better to not interact with the customer until you are certain it is the right time. Transparency seems like more of a liability than anything here.

I strongly prefer the stealth mode development pattern, assuming you do have a clear & consistent vision relative to your market & customers. A lot of human feedback is bullshit, so avoid it until you actually need it. Most people don't know what they like until they are 20 hours deep into it. Don't give them time to build up ridiculous expectations relative to your product.

Think about the way EA games launched Apex Legends. I would prefer if every game studio went down that path.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#35
post #3

I feel bad for him, but really the problem is he’s made a directorial mistake and it looks like the only point it’s gonna click is when the sales numbers hit. Will he realize his mistaken then or will he continue to blame the customer?

I could not agree more. A lot of game producers get this arrogant approach of: "Making games would be such awesome job if it wasn't for those pesky gamers". The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think it's the latter. Ultimately the sales…

> “Ultimately, the reason some people get upset when a series changes isn’t because the new game is new, but because the old games get their future cut off. Getting a sequel you don’t want closes the door more definitively than creating a new IP. Nobody wants to see the corpse of something they love puppeted around when it could just be laid to rest.”

Except in this case, my understanding is that this isn't even true. This game is an alternate sequel to MI2 (which is widely beloved), throwing out the story from MI3 (and maybe Tales? Many fans did not like the story direction of MI3. Perhaps because Ron didn't work on it.. I didn't mind it). So I guess in that case, for the really opinionated MI1&2 fans, this is another bite at the apple.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#36
A lot of creatives have a hard time understanding the product side of art. Games are far more products like movies than they are "art".

There have been a bunch of recent examples lately that showcases the minds of masses. Spiderman No Way Home did supremely well by giving the masses what they wanted, and not straying too far from the marvel formula.

Sonic the Hedgehog Movie had a awful original art direction. The fans complained and the director reversed course, and now its a beloved and highly rated movie.

Top Gun 2 is another great example. The tone, direction, spirit of the original movie is captured supremely well and is on track for a billion dollars.

Pixar's Lightyear is a disappointment at the box office. Honestly who wanted a "realistic" version of Buzz from Toy Story. The tone, spirit, and art direction are too different.

I think Ron made a horrible directorial mistake, and while he shouldn't be attacked for it. He does deserve criticism, and people should be allowed to voice their dislike for a product and its direction.

As people on other sites have mentioned, this whole project has the feeling of the George Lucas Star Wars Prequels. George Lucas needed some honest feedback, and collaboration with other people like Kasdan. Ron Gilbert should have gotten some opinions from the original Monkey Island artists/Lucas Arts Crew.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#37
I played the original ones and I would have preferred a pixel art closer to the original.

That being said, I subscribe what Ron and many people here said. If you don't like it, don't buy it. There's no need for all vitriol. I will buy it the same, since for me Monkey Island was always about much more than the graphics.

On top of everything, this is the actual _creator_ of all the games and stories' vision. It's not like it's some knock-off copy or money-grabbing reboot. If this is how he imagined the new Monkey Island we should at least be happy there's another one!

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#38
post #14

Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen. It's astounding. Someone wants to create something, and there's just so much hate and negativity on something that people didn't even pay for. I've seen it on HN also. Someone creates a thing, and then people pour out of the woodwork to lump horrible criticism. No one is asking for blind praise for what they create, but surely there's a middle ground between…

> Gamers are the most entitled consumer group I've ever seen

True, but Some open source communities are good candidates for "most entitled consumers".

> I've seen it on HN also I will ever remember the launch of Dropbox here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it's even an exclusively nostalgia thing. Over the past few years I've seen a lot of complaining around art style changes. Notably the Civ V -> Civ VI art style change pissed a lot of people off. Personally I loved the game, but a lot of series veterans didn't even bother to try it.

In the other thread about this, someone brought up the colloquially named "Zelda Effect". It is most evident when reviewing Wind Waker, which used cartoony cell-shaded graphics: contemporary comments featured quite a lot of vitriol over that decision, but the game is now fondly remembered as one of the best entrants in the series.

Deep down almost everyone is "conservative" - they want what they had yesterday again today, so any change to art style, etc, is already on a back-foot.

But in the end, the good things stand out. The reason the CD-i Zelda games are not remembered fondly is not really because of the art style, that's just an easy way to rip on them.

Re: “The joy of sharing has been driven from me“

#40
post #3

I feel bad for him, but really the problem is he’s made a directorial mistake and it looks like the only point it’s gonna click is when the sales numbers hit. Will he realize his mistaken then or will he continue to blame the customer?

I could not agree more. A lot of game producers get this arrogant approach of: "Making games would be such awesome job if it wasn't for those pesky gamers". The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think it's the latter. Ultimately the sales…

  > The question here is: "Is this a really innovative graphical design that 
  > will get praised by future generations but is misunderstood now" or "Is this 
  > just a bad decision that the creator is unwilling to own". I tend to think 
  > it's the latter. Ultimately the sales will tell.
The question here is not "should people like a thing," it's "why are people such assholes?" To quote Ron Gilbert's linked post:

  > Play it or don't play it but don't ruin it for everyone else.
It sure seems like this is a fantastic example of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory [0]: nobody would speak so awfully to Ron Gilbert if they were leaning over his shoulder watching the trailer.

[0]: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa...

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