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The Deported

laphamsquarterly.org

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Re: The Deported

#31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nazi Russia? Not once, but twice?

Nazism = totalitarian fascist state plus political nationalism. Fascist Italy and Spain weren't nazist for example, while Germany was and Russia today is. Informally that specific flavor of the Russian Nazi ideology is called "rashism".

History doesn't repeat but it echos.

I don't know if trying to brand what is happening in Russia today as Nazism is useful. It seems to me that trying to define Nazism while ignoring the cult of Hitler is fruitless.

Even during WW2 the closest clone-regimes of Nazi Germany (I'm thinking of maybe the Ustaše led Nezavisna Država Hrvatska) are generally classed as facist, [ultra]nationalist, racist and expansionist but not Nazi despite their similarities[1] - because the party itself wasn't called the Nazi party.

I think Russia falls into a similar space.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

Re: The Deported

#32

> “You are making a terrible mistake,” I said, and I repeated the statement three times. > “Yes, we may make mistakes,” he replied, “but”—and he firmly closed his lips and shook his head—“we never regret.” And they never did. They don’t even acknowledge it. Interesting to contrast the response of the German state to its genocide and that of Turkey’s. > We base our objections to the Armenians on three distinct grounds…

Not that it's okay, but the Tamil Nadu situation seems (to an outsider) to be a class/caste based call to violence more than a racial genocide. Sort of like "eat the rich", where there's no specific call to ethnically cleanse anyone, "just" for class warfare. Definitely possible I'm missing something, and it's a touchy subject, but one I'm increasingly interested in these times. So feel free to correct if I'm wrong,…

Isn't that a common excuse for genocide though? just look at the talking points that are used to justify violence against jews.

Re: The Deported

#33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a war carried out against a neighboring country for territorial and security reasons. It's wrong for all the reasons aggressive wars are always wrong, but I don't see it as genocidal in the "now we kill all the Ukrainians" way. There certainly have been genocidal policies by Russians against Ukraine in the past, but I don't see it here.

The war declaration by Putin clearly contains call for genocide and ethnic cleansing and for destruction of Ukrainian ethnical and political identity. And that is what they've been doing there. And if i you watch Russian state TV you'll see that they call for and celebrate destruction of "Ukraininess", cancelation of Ukrainian language in schools and celebratory reporting that there will be only Russian, they celebra…

To expand on this and compare to WW2 history, Germany invaded both Poland and France, but the rhetoric around both was very different.

For Poland, there is the Obersalzberg Speech[1], where he said in part:

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?

(The irony of the final sentence on this very discussion about the annihilation of the Armenians is not lost on me!)

Compare that to Hitler's speech about the conquest of France:

The German Army does not come as an enemy of the French people nor of its soldiers, nor does it intend to govern these territories. It has a single aim-to repel together with its allies any landing attempt by the Anglo-American forces.

Marshal Petain and his government are entirely free and are in the position to fulfill their duty as in the past. From now on nothing stands in the way of realization of their requests, made earlier, to come to Versailles to govern France from there.

The German forces have been ordered to see to it that the French people are inconvenienced as little as possible.[2]

The difference is very clear! And the French speech was made after the Poland one.

Which is more like Putain's denial of the right of Ukraine to be a country?

Already long before the Ukraine crisis, at an April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Vladimir Putin reportedly claimed that “Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? A part of its territory is [in] Eastern Europe, but a[nother] part, a considerable one, was a gift from us!” In his March 18, 2014 speech marking the annexation of Crimea, Putin declared that Russians and Ukrainians “are one people. Kiev is the mother of Russian cities. Ancient Rus’ is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” Since then, Putin has repeated similar claims on many occasions. As recently as February 2020, he once again stated in an interview that Ukrainians and Russians “are one and the same people”, and he insinuated that Ukrainian national identity had emerged as a product of foreign interference. Similarly, Russia’s then-Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a perplexed apparatchik in April 2016 that there has been “no state” in Ukraine, neither before nor after the 2014 crisis.[3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Obersalzberg_Speech

[2] https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/adolf-hitler-appeal-to-...

[3] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine...

Re: The Deported

#34
Huh... Bing and DDG both seem to avoid autocomplete for "Armenian Genocide" - requiring one to type it out almost completely. Google suggests it early on, as one would expect.

Re: The Deported

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that it's okay, but the Tamil Nadu situation seems (to an outsider) to be a class/caste based call to violence more than a racial genocide. Sort of like "eat the rich", where there's no specific call to ethnically cleanse anyone, "just" for class warfare. Definitely possible I'm missing something, and it's a touchy subject, but one I'm increasingly interested in these times. So feel free to correct if I'm wrong,…

In Tamil Nadu, there are racial overtones to this call for violence. It’s targeted specifically at Tamil Brahmins, regarded as “outsider Aryans”. There are other wealthy landed castes, but they are not the target of this rhetoric (and they are the ones in power). So it’s not just “eat the rich”. Along side this, there’s actual physical violence between other caste groups. The ones targeting Brahmins is interesting be…

I see this post has been downvoted, but I don’t know enough about the situation to know why. Is it factually wrong or do people oppose the politics?

Re: The Deported

#36
post #2

>We base our objections to the Armenians Objection to an ethnicity. Key indicator of genocide for any action taken based on such an objection. >on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks. In the second place, they are determined to domineer over us and to establish a separate state. In the third place, they have openly encouraged our enemies. They have ass…

> Nazi Russia

Be honest, you came here just to write this.

Re: The Deported

#37
And with all that genocide talk, Turkey is a NATO member and was(technically is?) an EU candidate. Moreover, rumors are, Finland and Sweden will submit to Turkish demands regarding Kurds. Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently. Maybe it really doesn’t bother western liberal democracies whether genocide happened. And it’s only used as a tool.

Re: The Deported

#38
post #37

And with all that genocide talk, Turkey is a NATO member and was(technically is?) an EU candidate. Moreover, rumors are, Finland and Sweden will submit to Turkish demands regarding Kurds. Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently. Maybe it really doesn’t bother western liberal democracies whether genocide happened. And it’s only used as a tool.

> Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently

That is not true, in 2020 Azerbaijan successfully liberated a region that was under Armenian occupation since 1994. I say liberated because that land was and is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Also, Azerbaijan suffered atrocities conducted by the Armenians, for example the Khojaly massacre[0]. Yes Turkey helped Azerbaijan, Russia helped Armenia. It was the first showcase of the Turkish drone technology in a war between regular armies but the Turkish help was not only in providing weapons, it was much deeper.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_massacre

When it comes to the Kurds, IMHO the Turks deserve most of the blame for the feud BUT what Turkey demands has nothing to do with Kurds but with internationally recognized terrorist organisations that operate in Turkey.

Think of it like this, if you are sympathetic of the people of Iraq for the horrible things that the USA did there would you also support ISIS? If your answer is NO then you don't have a case for supporting PKK against Turkey because PKK is a terrorist organisation that blows up public buses or kills teachers. If you are not familiar with their activities, there's ample amount of information online.

Re: The Deported

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Tamil Nadu, there are racial overtones to this call for violence. It’s targeted specifically at Tamil Brahmins, regarded as “outsider Aryans”. There are other wealthy landed castes, but they are not the target of this rhetoric (and they are the ones in power). So it’s not just “eat the rich”. Along side this, there’s actual physical violence between other caste groups. The ones targeting Brahmins is interesting be…

I see this post has been downvoted, but I don’t know enough about the situation to know why. Is it factually wrong or do people oppose the politics?

the latter

Re: The Deported

#40
post #22

As a Turk with very little interest to History, would like to share my guesses about viewpoints of these characters have. First of all I am very impressed about how modern the ambassador is for 192X. He is Liberal exactly like someone from USA would be today. Now! Liberalism is not a idea that is easily accessible back then. Let alone find a any group of people that will backup you in this way. Even in current Turkey…

> At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression.

Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land

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