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So it wasn't an utopia. The mice had enough water and food, but they ran out of living space. It's so obvious I can't understand nobody pointed it out yet.
So it wasn't an utopia. The mice had enough water and food, but they ran out of living space. It's so obvious I can't understand nobody pointed it out yet.
But the thing is, this wasn’t Calhoun’s first rodent utopia. This was the 25th iteration. And by this point he knew how quickly mouse heaven could deteriorate into mouse hell.
From TFA.
i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment requires the species to adapt in order to survive. i feel like there should be a pen size above which such an experiment might run indefinetly. but my gut tells me: no matter the size, it will always eventually crash and burn because mice can't "talk it out" i think…
I was following that until the language thing. How does talking, make more room?
i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment requires the species to adapt in order to survive. i feel like there should be a pen size above which such an experiment might run indefinetly. but my gut tells me: no matter the size, it will always eventually crash and burn because mice can't "talk it out" i think…
I was following that until the language thing. How does talking, make more room?
The global population of Earth has pretty much doubled since July 1968 when the experiment was run. Evidently the fears of overpopulation they had were unfounded.
But the consequences of too many young males and not enough females, are quite similar. The consequences of having too many men, now coming of age, are far-reaching: Beyond an epidemic of loneliness, the imbalance distorts labor markets, drives up savings rates in China and drives down consumption, artificially inflates certain property values, and parallels increases in violent crime, trafficking or prostitution in…
We are seeing tbe consequences of this in tons of ways, be it the rise of authoritarianism and incel culture, to region-specific issues for China/India.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
But the consequences of too many young males and not enough females, are quite similar. The consequences of having too many men, now coming of age, are far-reaching: Beyond an epidemic of loneliness, the imbalance distorts labor markets, drives up savings rates in China and drives down consumption, artificially inflates certain property values, and parallels increases in violent crime, trafficking or prostitution in…
I remember this reporting coming out over a decade ago. We are seeing tbe consequences of this in tons of ways, be it the rise of authoritarianism and incel culture, to region-specific issues for China/India.
Generation time in (lab) mice is about 9-11 weeks, while in humans living in modern societies it takes between 20 and 30 years.
To have actual consequences on society at large we need to wait at least two generations, so obviously in such a long period of time people won't notice the build up, like they do in the short time span it takes for mice.
It happened with climate change too.
i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment requires the species to adapt in order to survive. i feel like there should be a pen size above which such an experiment might run indefinetly. but my gut tells me: no matter the size, it will always eventually crash and burn because mice can't "talk it out" i think…
Though we have some other problems like tribalism that might be down to the environment we evolved in, and not having a common language would make those a lot worse.
The (famous) experiment seems to prove that mice are happy with the benefits of relatively high levels of social organization until the burdens of close quarter living and constant company drain them of their will to live and their ability to thrive. It amounts to a pretty strong argument for American style independence and personal liberty. The implication, I think, was that it was supposed to also endorse the laiss…
The famous experiment seems to prove that a large number young people are bad for social stability in a mice society. That amounts to a pretty strong argument against infant healthcare /s. I don't think we should generalize too much from mice to men. Deriving social policy from what works for mice seems like a very bold move to me.
The book "The Human Tide: How Population Shaped the Modern World" by Paul Morland has some interesting thoughts on the topic.
So it wasn't an utopia. The mice had enough water and food, but they ran out of living space. It's so obvious I can't understand nobody pointed it out yet.
I think the point is that the population would continue to grow until they run out of living space and go extinct regardless of the exact size of the experiment.
i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment requires the species to adapt in order to survive. i feel like there should be a pen size above which such an experiment might run indefinetly. but my gut tells me: no matter the size, it will always eventually crash and burn because mice can't "talk it out" i think…
The book "Heaven's River" by Dennis E. Taylor (part 4 of the bobiverse series) contains an interesting Utopia, similar to a generation ship.