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Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

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Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#31

Post by pclmulqdq »

threeseed wrote: post #24
Cyclical wrote: post #13

While very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.

> A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design. Apparently it's common depending on the country you live. Some countries have a first-to-file versus a first-to-invent patent system. And so you end up with people (often inventors or retired lawyers) who spend their days filing patents for other people's inventions. The idea being that they only need one or two of the pat…

Even in the US, which is first to file, your patent can be invalidated by published prior art that makes it obvious. The stuff made here video is a textbook example of an invalidating piece of prior art.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#32

Post by infogulch »

Cyclical wrote: post #13

While very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.

The principle is the same, but this design is different and better in some ways. Depending on the generality of the claims a patent may be reasonable. The Enclave design is more refined/compact, but I'm skeptical of the longevity/durability of the wedge mechanism.

The underlying principle that's common between the StuffMadeHere and Enclave designs is 1. Decouple setting the pins from testing them, and 2. Do not allow the keyway access to physically manipulate the set pins while testing them.

Interestingly this same principle is used throughout cryptography, e.g. in constant time comparison algorithms. Basically, any partial success information leak can be used to reduce the search space exponentially. And that's what single-pin picking is all about, so it's cool that this idea has (finally?) migrated to physical security.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#33

Post by jstanley »

voldacar wrote: post #26

This actually might be unpickable. But the small space of keys (6^6 combinations) makes me think you could just fabricate every single key and test them one by one, if you were really determined

That would be 46656 keys. I don't think this is feasible.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#34

Post by XorNot »

mgdlbp wrote: post #20
nodesocket wrote: post #5

LockPickingLawyer[1] might have something to say about "unpickable". [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer

LPL was actually challenged a year ago with unpickable prototypes made by an engineering YouTuber, Stuff Made Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecy1FBdCRbQ (see also description)

The best part of that video is where he notes that the hinge pins were welded "to prevent me from tapping them out and declaring victory...and he was right to do that as that's exactly what I would've done".

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#35

Post by totalview »

Just about every key lock in the world today has the same fundamental flaw. They are designed by a human being, and they test if that design can be exploited by calling it unpick-able. This flaw opens up infinite kinds of vulnerabilities.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#36

Post by mNovak »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #31
threeseed wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design. Apparently it's common depending on the country you live. Some countries have a first-to-file versus a first-to-invent patent system. And so you end up with people (often inventors or retired lawyers) who spend their days filing patents for other people's inventions. The idea being that they only need one or two of the pat…

Even in the US, which is first to file, your patent can be invalidated by published prior art that makes it obvious. The stuff made here video is a textbook example of an invalidating piece of prior art.

It might invalidate aspects of the patent, but the two are different enough that certain aspects of this one are still patentable.

Bottom line, you don't always patent the whole device, sometimes just the small unique implementation details are valuable enough.

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#39

Post by olliej »

I feel like I've seen this two step design multiple times, both on YouTube (LPL, and someone else)? But also I feel like I've seen it somewhere else as well?

This seems like the same idea with a "modern" website design .

Re: Enclave: An Unpickable Lock

#40

Post by [deleted] »

Cyclical wrote: post #13

While very cool and seemingly well-designed, this seems like a derivative of the lock developed by the YouTuber StuffMadeHere. A little strange to see someone applying for a patent for a version of someone else's design.

[deleted]
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