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How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

theatlantic.com

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Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#31

Post by wrp »

somat wrote: post #17

I would say that computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive. Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick. see shorthand for an even quicker modern engineered version of this. When you no longer have to manually produce a large body of text(you hav…

> ...computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive.

In the USA, widespread use of cursive died out in the 1970s. Widespread use of personal computers came about a decade later. In public education over the 1970s, they largely abandoned the formal teaching of handwriting.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#32

Post by wrp »

squirt wrote: post #23

I find it very hard to buy into the core premise of this article. Namely: > Sassoon’s analysis of how we’re taught to hold pens makes a much stronger case for the role of the ballpoint in the decline of cursive. She explains that the type of pen grip taught in contemporary grade school is the same grip that’s been used for generations ... modern pens requires that they be placed at a greater, more upright angle to th…

You and Sassoon are talking about different things. She is referring to angle of grip and how it influences style of writing. You are referring to tenseness of grip. Sassoon also deals with that issue in other writing. She works as a physical therapist with people who get RSI from their writing style.

The letter forms of cursive evolved when people were writing with quill or dip pens, and rely on stroke forms that are facilitated by the natural grip of using a quill/dip pen. Ballpoint pens require a more upright angle, a firmer grip, and more emphasis on axial rather than lateral force. Ballpoints encourage stroke forms that conflict with traditional letter shapes. Fountain pens, on the other hand, are properly held more like a dip pen. That is why people experience an improvement in their handwriting when they switch from ballpoint to fountain pen.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#33

Post by somat »

squirt wrote: post #30
vanderZwan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I believe you I also would appreciate to know what the correct answer is then. Even an oversimplified summary version woull be great

Obvious disclaimer: not a historian. Though I can absolutely provide an simplified summary of both the development of present day cursive script. European calligraphy was principally practiced as a means to produce and maintain religious texts[0]. From italic[1] calligraphic styles in the 1500's, we end up with Roundhand[2] in the 1600's. For reproductions/printing, it's often cut into a copper plate. Hence the commo…

I used the term sloppy when perhaps I should have used the term fluid, that is, it does sound better to say that one character flows into the next as opposed to one character slops into the next. Also, thank you for your posts, I love learning about stuff like this.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#35

Post by StewardMcOy »

wrp wrote: post #31
somat wrote: post #17

I would say that computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive. Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick. see shorthand for an even quicker modern engineered version of this. When you no longer have to manually produce a large body of text(you hav…

> ...computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive. In the USA, widespread use of cursive died out in the 1970s. Widespread use of personal computers came about a decade later. In public education over the 1970s, they largely abandoned the formal teaching of handwriting.

This may be true in much of the USA, but I know from experience that it's not true in California and Texas, the two most populous states. It's still required in Texas, and many California schools continue to teach it, even though it hasn't been required statewide since the early 2010s.

When I was in California public school in the 1990s, cursive was taught in elementary school. We spent a lot of time practicing it, far more than it deserved, even if you believed it was important, and many of the teachers were quite strict about it. In junior high, teachers still required in-class assignments to be written in cursive, claiming everything we wrote in high school would need to be in cursive. (Luckily, this wasn't true. I even had a few high school teachers who mandated a no cursive policy.)

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#36

Post by kthejoker2 »

StewardMcOy wrote: post #35
wrp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive. In the USA, widespread use of cursive died out in the 1970s. Widespread use of personal computers came about a decade later. In public education over the 1970s, they largely abandoned the formal teaching of handwriting.

This may be true in much of the USA, but I know from experience that it's not true in California and Texas, the two most populous states. It's still required in Texas, and many California schools continue to teach it, even though it hasn't been required statewide since the early 2010s. When I was in California public school in the 1990s, cursive was taught in elementary school. We spent a lot of time practicing it, f…

This is incorrect at least in 2022; my Texas educated children have never been taught or graded on cursive.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#37

Post by rg111 »

molbioguy wrote: post #19
rg111 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have several higher end fountain pens that are my daily drivers. And I have zero incidents as well. I own several Lamy, Pilot, and Platinum. If you ever write with a Pilot Custom 823 on decent paper, you will never be able to go back. (If you enjoy the friction in writing, you need to try Lamy Al-Star/Safari fine nib, or Pilot Metropolitan fine nib. Medium nibs are smooth and some people don't like that.) And even…

Any suggestions for good lower cost pens?

Start with either Lamy Safary [0] or Pilot Metropolitan [1].

If you like smooth, go with Medium nib, and if you like some feedback, go with Fine, as I said.

Writing on decent paper (not always the expensive one) with a decent medium nib pen is something everyone needs to try at least once.

[0]: https://www.amazon.com/Safari-Fountain-Charcoal-Medium-L17M/...

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Pilot-Metropolitan-Collection-Fountai...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#38

Post by syntheweave »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #15
rchowe wrote: post #7

When I was in school, I wondered why my hand hurt from writing so much. I switched to gel pens and my hand fatigue went way down. We put up with a lot in the name of cost. The thin blue Bic pens are much cheaper, but when I have to use one I really hate it.

Yeah, gel pens are vastly superior to standard ball points. However, the fundamental issue of not needing to write as much as we used to I believe is dominant. I have abandoned using cursive because it takes practice to keep it readable--and I simply don't write enough. I can type faster on a keyboard than I can write with a pen and what's in the computer is more useful--paper is only of value when you need to do som…

I've been spending time drawing and invested in an angled desk surface(a Saiji portable floor desk) and I've found that when I use this surface, at the proper height, with the proper grip for inking(which is relatively relaxed and avoids contact with the bones of the knuckles), and using fineliner pens, I can write some fantastic cursive letters, despite not having practiced it in decades. I don't even remember all the letter forms.

So I think the story we face is one of gradual degradation of the average condition in which writing is done: the pens are part of it because ballpoints train you into a tighter grip with more pressure. But equally as important is that we've moved away from desks specifically for writing and drawing towards generic flat surfaces, so nobody realizes what they lose by not having such a surface or what kinds of compensations they are making. If you have the height and angle correct, a relaxed grip is easier and you can make more accurate marks from the shoulder, with decent control over swooping curves. It's the single easiest way to boost your draftsmanship and penmanship.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#39

Post by usrn »

rchowe wrote: post #7

When I was in school, I wondered why my hand hurt from writing so much. I switched to gel pens and my hand fatigue went way down. We put up with a lot in the name of cost. The thin blue Bic pens are much cheaper, but when I have to use one I really hate it.

I really think ball point pens are the worst. Personally I like mechanical pencils but I would even prefer crayons. At least crayons work reliably.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#40

Post by webmaven »

wrp wrote: post #32
squirt wrote: post #23

I find it very hard to buy into the core premise of this article. Namely: > Sassoon’s analysis of how we’re taught to hold pens makes a much stronger case for the role of the ballpoint in the decline of cursive. She explains that the type of pen grip taught in contemporary grade school is the same grip that’s been used for generations ... modern pens requires that they be placed at a greater, more upright angle to th…

You and Sassoon are talking about different things. She is referring to angle of grip and how it influences style of writing. You are referring to tenseness of grip. Sassoon also deals with that issue in other writing. She works as a physical therapist with people who get RSI from their writing style. The letter forms of cursive evolved when people were writing with quill or dip pens, and rely on stroke forms that ar…

> Ballpoints encourage stroke forms that conflict with traditional letter shapes.

Hmm. Can you point to more information on this conflict?

Maybe what's needed is a new non-traditional form of cursive that embraces the stroke forms that come naturally with a ballpoint.

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