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L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

latimes.com

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Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#31

Post by DigiDigiorno »

sammalloy wrote: post #29
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that reduced pesticide use creating more deaths due to malaria was not debunked.... The idea that Carson wanted a complete pesticide ban and that Silent Spring was the main cause of the reduced use may have been debunked. And certainly biased organizations blamed her. Heck, the "Silent spring killed more people than Hitler" quote comes from Michael Crichton in 2004, your timeline seems ridiculously misleadin…

The "Silent spring killed more people than Hitler" line from Crichton, or variations on it, predates him by many decades. Crichton, as it is well known, helped spread much of this old disinformation (most famously the climate denial), in the same way that Scott Adams did after Crichton passed away in 2008 and took up the same cause. How and why Crichton and Adams got roped into this universe of alternate facts is som…

The generalized sentiment predates him, but I have never seen the comparison of banning DDT to causing more death than Hitler anywhere but from post 2000 and originally from Crichton. If it comes from somewhere else can you source it?

Note, I'm playing devils advocate in my above comment. So I would like to know if I am wrong about that. (You used the word "variations" so perhaps you just meant the sentiment of Silent Spring causing malaria deaths and not a mass murderer comparison)

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#32

Post by [deleted] »

joecool1029 wrote: post #22
jacobolus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDT causes significant health problems for humans, including infertility, birth defects, cancer, and brain damage to children. It also wreaks havoc on various wild animals. It should be reserved as a last resort and not used indiscriminately. While killing mosquitos has saved many lives, DDT has also ruined many lives. Pretty much everyone involved in selling the virtues of DDT has their own questionable motives, and…

> DDT causes significant health problems for humans, including infertility, birth defects, cancer, and brain damage to children. Source even one of these claims. Human exposure to DDT is a suspected carcinogen but has never been conclusively linked. http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/ddtgen.pdf I would argue that it was good business in wealthy countries to eliminate DDT as it was off-patent. This coupled with it being…

[deleted]

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#33

Post by trash_goblin »

refurb wrote: post #23
Aloha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDT has a long persistence in the environment, longer than mustard.

Sure but mustard kills you dead real quick. And is slowly leaking even decades later. It hasn’t gone away.

Weird that you think this is some sort of completion, weirder that you picked a side.

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#34

Post by jacobolus »

joecool1029 wrote: post #22
jacobolus wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDT causes significant health problems for humans, including infertility, birth defects, cancer, and brain damage to children. It also wreaks havoc on various wild animals. It should be reserved as a last resort and not used indiscriminately. While killing mosquitos has saved many lives, DDT has also ruined many lives. Pretty much everyone involved in selling the virtues of DDT has their own questionable motives, and…

> DDT causes significant health problems for humans, including infertility, birth defects, cancer, and brain damage to children. Source even one of these claims. Human exposure to DDT is a suspected carcinogen but has never been conclusively linked. http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/ddtgen.pdf I would argue that it was good business in wealthy countries to eliminate DDT as it was off-patent. This coupled with it being…

Disclaimer #1: I am not a doctor or medical researcher. This is just some of what turns up with some cursory skimming of journal abstracts. I have not deeply investigated these studies. There are also plenty of studies that were inconclusive or failed to find a link between DDT and this or that health problem.

Disclaimer #2: Using DDT to control mosquitos clearly also saves many lives, and almost everyone agrees that it should not be completely discarded in cases where there is no better alternative. But it also shouldn’t be used indiscriminately or treated as benign.

Impaired semen quality: https://imedea.uib-csic.es/master/cambioglobal/Modulo_IV_cod...

Low birth weight and small head circumference: https://www.nature.com/articles/pr200749

Genital malformation: https://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/16061/Born...

Spontaneous abortion: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11557181/ https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ehpm/8/3/8_3_77/_pdf

Autism: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6377859/

Cognitive problems for young children: https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/164/10/955/162380

Cognitive problems among the elderly: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041201...

Chronic nervous system effects: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01406... https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/indhealth1963/22/3/22_3...

Alzheimer’s disease: https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-... https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/1...

Impaired thyroid function: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2727265/

Breast cancer: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.10260 https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/111/8/803/5299924

Testicular cancer: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936455/

Pancreatic cancer: https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article-abstract/84/10/764/917...

Diabetes and hypertension: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S14384... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00139... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11356-014-3371-0 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8477732/

There are also a bunch of studies of harmful effects in lab mammals.

(And of course it is super toxic to insects and bio-accumulates harming various other animals, notably birds of prey.)

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#35

Post by thephyber »

version_five wrote: post #28
thephyber wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a conspiracy theory. DDT was disposed of by dropping 27,000 barrels of the substance in the Pacific off the coast of Catalina Islands. Is your complaint that actual harm to a human has not been proven by this incident? I’m kinda curious (not really) where you stand on mRNA based COVID-19 vaccines given your phrasing of your dismissal of harm.

This comment is so stupid. It starts with some facts, or corrections to a misconception in the grandparent post. That's reasonable. Then what, some weird jump to covid and the idea they the GP may also have an unorthodox view about it, presumably something that's viewed as a mortal sin? GP may have been quick to push back on the DDT thing, but suddenly it's been taken into religious inquisition territory. This is pre…

I’m not sure there was a misconception in the GP. That author obviously knew what this article/title was in reference to and rejected it with high confidence. Too high confidence, in my estimation. So high as to be hubris.

His description of the popular narrative and describing it as a “conspiracy theory” puts him into what I would describe as reactionary politics. Hence, my mention that I could likely predict this reactionary stance on mRNA vaccines. Not for sure, but with relatively high confidence.

Unorthodox view is one thing, and is defensible. GP’s attitude was more derisive than that. You are right to the extent that my comment didn’t benefit from mention of vaccines. But yours doesn’t benefit from the hyperbole of mortal sin or religious inquisition.

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#36

Post by refurb »

trash_goblin wrote: post #33
refurb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but mustard kills you dead real quick. And is slowly leaking even decades later. It hasn’t gone away.

Weird that you think this is some sort of completion, weirder that you picked a side.

If your goal is just to cluck your tongue on the internet, then yeah, it's not a competition.

If you're looking to spend limited resources addressing it, spending it on the worse situation is just smart.

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#37

Post by fulafel »

Sundog wrote: post #16

.....wait, we've known this for 20 years

It seems to take about 50 years of headlines (2 generations) for environmental concerns to get through to the public enough to make an impact. This is actually a really underappreciated thing. What's the next environmental catastrophe in 50 years? (optimistically assuming we somehow start acting on and survive the current global warming disaster that was discovered in 70sa/80s)

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#39

Post by daniel-cussen »

Justin_K wrote: post #9
daniel-cussen wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Rtfa

No because then I get a cookies consent form, obviously I will, I have the right to stay out of it. I have the right not to consent to tracking cookies, so I have the right to go off the title and the other comments rather than read the article.

I wanted to read the article, that was my intent. But come on, fucking consent forms everywhere? I'm not obliged to consent!

Re: L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground (2020)

#40

Post by daniel-cussen »

thephyber wrote: post #5
daniel-cussen wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Not a conspiracy theory. DDT was disposed of by dropping 27,000 barrels of the substance in the Pacific off the coast of Catalina Islands. Is your complaint that actual harm to a human has not been proven by this incident? I’m kinda curious (not really) where you stand on mRNA based COVID-19 vaccines given your phrasing of your dismissal of harm.

Saying it was a conspiracy theory is not in this case accusing them of lying. I agree it's true. True conspiracy theory, it was totally immoral and they did it as a team.

Theorization is generally the only sure-fire way of detecting conspiracies, some conspiracy theories are true, there's conspiracies, Julius Caesar's death of course. Officially declared a conspiracy by Rome.

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