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Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

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Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#31

Post by Sirened »

somethoughts wrote: post #22
daguava wrote: post #2

There's a lot of claims of poached talent in the article, basically claiming [paraphrasing] "Apple, maintaining their stressful work env and not paying to shore that up lost some rockstars" How true is this? If they're on the money it's an excellent example of a talent retention miss leading to a demonstrable mediocrity in delivery.

Likely its a bit of hyperbole to get views. I think there's always a desire to work at a startup in SV and in a low/zero interest rate environment - VCs could probably fund something in the chip design space. But now that interest rates are going up, I think that will be a lot tougher and Apple will be a better position due to their direct access to free cashflow - to either compete or acquire them at a later date. I…

++, totally. I think a lot of people are linking CPU engineering with SW engineering because they both work with the same product at the end of the day, but the industries are radically different both from a business and culture standpoint. The "go fast and break things" mentality that pervades the SV software startup scene is, in my experience, no where to be found in hardware because it's both incredibly costly to make any mistakes and because most CPU divisions are lead by people with decades of experience (rather than the mishmash that is startups).

The author's argument here about talent leaving after having "gotten Apple off x64" is such an odd take. It's not as if Apple started designing these chips after the M1 launched—the pipeline for even small SoCs is often five or more years. The bit about Rivos is especially bizarre because that company was founded in 2021, well after this chip must have been taped out.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#32

Post by jltsiren »

brokencode wrote: post #24

Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Why would compensation be the decisive factor for top talent in a highly compensated field? They have probably already made enough money that they don't have to work for living, and they are probably genuinely interested in their work because they made it to the top. Apple processors are already in the market, so the most interesting work is done, and it may be time to start looking for new challenges.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#33

Post by postalrat »

brokencode wrote: post #24

Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Well they aren't the richest and certainly aren't the biggest.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#34

Post by drawingthesun »

A few comments here about how Apple is losing a lot of top talent to rival Rivos, a stealth startup.

What would Rivos business model be? I’m genuinely interested seems interesting to me.

Would they be positioning themselves as the next Qualcomm?

Or perhaps sell a superior chip to Apple at some point?

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#35

Post by postalrat »

hunterb123 wrote: post #30
999900000999 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most 10xers aren't constantly 10x. You might have a 10x year and then a 1.1x year. With tech it's a bit of a catch 22, most engineers really become effective after 18 to 24 months. At this point you know how to really get things done in your org. But after 2 years you can job hop and make significantly more, so your interest might not align 100% with the company's

This. I'll make a product for someone in a few weekends, working 18 hours a day for a few weeks straight, Then I won't have the energy for a few months. Probably evens out to an employer, but imo you do better when the snowball is rolling longer without breaks. That's the secret to 10x. ADHD and don't stop. Stopping is the enemy, you can't see the forest. I hear regulation is nice, but tell my mind that. Been at my e…

You think it's rough being 10. Trying being 10,000x.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#36

Post by hunterb123 »

postalrat wrote: post #35
hunterb123 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I'll make a product for someone in a few weekends, working 18 hours a day for a few weeks straight, Then I won't have the energy for a few months. Probably evens out to an employer, but imo you do better when the snowball is rolling longer without breaks. That's the secret to 10x. ADHD and don't stop. Stopping is the enemy, you can't see the forest. I hear regulation is nice, but tell my mind that. Been at my e…

You think it's rough being 10. Trying being 10,000x.

Sleep deprivation is the limit. Whatever multiplier you are, you're capped by that.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#37

Post by wbl »

exhilaration wrote: post #21
dhanna wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The youngest, strongest RTL engineer I know jumped from Apple to Rivos.

I'm still amazed at how jumping to a rival firm like this is possible in California, those of us in pretty much the rest of the country are locked behind non-competes.

Horace Greely had the answer 150 years ago.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#38

Post by TylerE »

brokencode wrote: post #24

Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Things don't become the "est" anything by being wasteful.

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#39

Post by lostlogin »

jltsiren wrote: post #32
brokencode wrote: post #24

Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Why would compensation be the decisive factor for top talent in a highly compensated field? They have probably already made enough money that they don't have to work for living, and they are probably genuinely interested in their work because they made it to the top. Apple processors are already in the market, so the most interesting work is done, and it may be time to start looking for new challenges.

The article specifically lists culture and money as the reasons people are leaving. It also adds that there is a need for a challenge amongst a successful and accomplished group.

“ The bleeding hasn’t stopped in recent years as Apple’s work culture simply isn’t the best and other firms, namely the hyperscalers such as Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta, are paying more than Apple was to poach talent.”

Re: Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase and A15 Based IP

#40

Post by somethoughts »

Sirened wrote: post #31
somethoughts wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likely its a bit of hyperbole to get views. I think there's always a desire to work at a startup in SV and in a low/zero interest rate environment - VCs could probably fund something in the chip design space. But now that interest rates are going up, I think that will be a lot tougher and Apple will be a better position due to their direct access to free cashflow - to either compete or acquire them at a later date. I…

++, totally. I think a lot of people are linking CPU engineering with SW engineering because they both work with the same product at the end of the day, but the industries are radically different both from a business and culture standpoint. The "go fast and break things" mentality that pervades the SV software startup scene is, in my experience, no where to be found in hardware because it's both incredibly costly to…

Yep - also was going to add but it was getting kinda long...

With respect to Rivos, reading the about page - it seems an interesting take on RISC-V.

My take is that this will be rolled back into either Apple or Google at a later date - mostly as a hedge against someone (like Nvidia) acquiring the ARM IP now that its in play - or to provide some realistic alternative that can be used as a counter bid in licensing discussions with ARM.

Two of the founders of Rivos were involved in PA Semi which was acquired by Apple and Agnilux which was acquired by Google ChromeBook team.

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