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Ultrasonic Payments

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Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#31

Post by sdrothrock »

anunay03 wrote: post #26
veb wrote: post #4

This is such a cool experiment. Anything that involves sound like this is extremely interesting to me (I have a cochlear implant). Maybe I can hack it so I know when people are making payments :D

Awh, Can you give a idea of how much nuisance such devices can cause you daily? Also is there a way to prevent cochlear implants from detecting these frequencies? (like do only some cochlear implants do this or most of them do) I really wanna use tech like this sometimes in future, but I also wanna care about accessiblity.

I also have a cochlear implant; it doesn't allow me to hear ultrasonic frequencies -- in fact, my hearing range is still a subset of "normal."

Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#33

Post by mikeiz404 »

jackson1442 wrote: post #10
pixel_tracing wrote: post #5

I think it’s cool but with payments you’ll have to address security considerations. How can you prevent someone from spoofing a transaction or spoofing audio for payments?

This specific demo doesn't actually send payment data over audio, just a link to pay from. Post-payment would still go though signed stripe webhooks like a normal online payment. Seems like an interesting way to start a transaction without needing to buy any specialized equipment.

You don’t need to read the payment data. I think a phishing/spoofing attempt may be possible by playing a louder or directional ultrasonic message to introduce an alternate payment url. Or you may be able to accomplish a denial of service via jamming.

(If some one knows more, please step in and comment.) I’m guessing some of these could be issues with NFC too but from what I have skimmed online it seems both the tag and receiver would need to be modified to work at larger than normal distances of “1-5cm”[1]. Also much more power is needed to extend the range of NFC than sound since sound strength diminishes with the square of the distance and, from what I have skimmed, magnetic induction used by nearfield NFC diminishes with the cube of the distance [2][3].

1: https://seritag.com/learn/using-nfc/nfc-tag-scan-distance-ex...

2: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/magnetic-field-strengt...

3: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/44037/why-is-nea...

Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#34

Post by mercurywells »

sdrothrock wrote: post #31
anunay03 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awh, Can you give a idea of how much nuisance such devices can cause you daily? Also is there a way to prevent cochlear implants from detecting these frequencies? (like do only some cochlear implants do this or most of them do) I really wanna use tech like this sometimes in future, but I also wanna care about accessiblity.

I also have a cochlear implant; it doesn't allow me to hear ultrasonic frequencies -- in fact, my hearing range is still a subset of "normal."

I have one as well, and I've noticed that area proximity detectors (in hallways used to detect presence/motion) do get picked up and come through as loud pops.

Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#37

Post by hapiri »

pixel_tracing wrote: post #5

I think it’s cool but with payments you’ll have to address security considerations. How can you prevent someone from spoofing a transaction or spoofing audio for payments?

Higher level protocol would establish handshake & encryption I imagine.

Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#38

Post by mlambie »

jrmann100 wrote: post #17

I'm reminded of Google Tone[0], which beamed URLs audibly to nearby browsers in an Airdrop-style experience. A neat trick, but ultimately useless given that most devices have less obtrusive ways of sharing data P2P. The ultrasonic aspect of this experiment makes the technology a lot more useful. Tone also came with the unfortunate side effect of Google software having constant access to your microphone. 0: https://ch…

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Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#39

Post by hgomersall »

jjeaff wrote: post #25
jrmann100 wrote: post #17

I'm reminded of Google Tone[0], which beamed URLs audibly to nearby browsers in an Airdrop-style experience. A neat trick, but ultimately useless given that most devices have less obtrusive ways of sharing data P2P. The ultrasonic aspect of this experiment makes the technology a lot more useful. Tone also came with the unfortunate side effect of Google software having constant access to your microphone. 0: https://ch…

I disagree that there are better ways to transmit data p2p in most devices. Even the smoothest of setups for things like iot devices usually require a Bluetooth connection with a passcode or a connection to a lone wifi signal after which you need to switch back. Using sound would be a perfect way to setup iot speakers or really anything close by. Instead of having to activate Bluetooth pairing and find the sometimes…

The key exchange problem doesn't go away because you're using ultrasound.

Re: Ultrasonic Payments

#40

Post by shepherdjerred »

mercurywells wrote: post #34
sdrothrock wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a cochlear implant; it doesn't allow me to hear ultrasonic frequencies -- in fact, my hearing range is still a subset of "normal."

I have one as well, and I've noticed that area proximity detectors (in hallways used to detect presence/motion) do get picked up and come through as loud pops.

How loud? These are audible to me without an implant (unless some are audible and some are inaudible)
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