What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi? • Hacker News Board

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#31

Post by Retric » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #20

ArnoVW wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tended to agree with the soft version. But I just realized, what it's saying is that you need to know about a concept. The language is not necessary. In theory you can imagine a concept, not give it a name, and still use it. You can't communicate it through, which severely limits it's use. And somehow I suspect that naming the concept makes it easier to manipulate, so perhaps that is a 'weak' version of the theory?

It also would not be propagated along with the culture, which is the hypothesis at its core: not that people of one given language are incapable of understanding some concepts, but rather that their cultural bagage tends to bias them and shape their way of thinking (which I would think is obviously true to anyone who’s ever lived in a foreign country or read literature or news articles in a foreign language).

The constant creation of new words for new things and concepts seems to limit that idea.

Only dead languages are static, otherwise they can all adapt to new ideas as long as their sufficiently useful.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#32

Post by s1artibartfast » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

sfvisser wrote: post #6

Language shaping the way you think always feels off to me. Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. As easily as their negations, subtle variations, contextual dependencies, nuances, etc.

Relatedly, there are known neurological differences in the brains of different language speakers impacting how they process information and where.

Stokes in the same location can have different impacts based on the language of the speaker.

This suggests there are architectural and processing differences.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#33

Post by tshaddox » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #27

murbard2 wrote: post #19

This isn't asking the hard question though: how did the oracle see the future?

I think first it would need to be established that she did in fact see the future.

Yes. The explanation “it was all made up by one or more writers” sufficiently covers not just the precognition, but also the hallucinations and even the existence of the oracle.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#34

Post by s1artibartfast » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

sfvisser wrote: post #18

anbende wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard version of this, sometimes called Strong Whorfianism (after the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) is relatively easy to discredit. Imagine a system of gears. Turn them and adjust them in your mind. You’re thinking in images rather than language. The soft version of this, that our thinking is influenced by the limits of language is almost certainly true. To give a very HN example, think about the work done in different…

The fact that some things are more easily — or better, directly — expressable in some languages doesn’t necessarily imply your thinking is changed or that you can’t internalize the concept without access to that language. I don’t have twenty different words for specific shades of green or types of snow, but can still easily recognize them and use them in my thinking.

Yes, but think about languages that don't have the concept of green, but only a shade of blue that we would call green.

This would not stop your ability to describe it, but would change how you relate it to other colors.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#35

Post by hprotagonist » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #29

krisoft wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine a system of gears. Turn them and adjust them in your mind. You’re thinking in images rather than language. How is this demonstrating anything? Can someone do the same who doesn't know what a gear is?

The idea is that it an example of explicitly non-linguistic thinking—hence not all thinking can be defined or limited by linguistic structures.

a counterpoint is that this example begs the question; it assumes a priori that “thinking about gears” is not a language itself.

which, who knows, it might be!

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#36

Post by hprotagonist » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:49 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #23

sfvisser wrote: post #6

Language shaping the way you think always feels off to me. Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. As easily as their negations, subtle variations, contextual dependencies, nuances, etc.

> Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. Yes, most of them are (or can be, with the addition of a couple of neologisms or borrowings). Just like you can do anything with any Turing-complete language. Languages and cultures still have biases and built-in world views. For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate you…

> For example, to most Europeans, the idea that you would need to estimate your social rank to properly address someone is utterly alien.

A phenomenon that is, at best, about a century old. Maybe.

That there aren’t grammatical forms or special declensions of words that signal rank relationships (as there are in, say, japanese) does not for an instant mean that we do not consciously choose linguistic styles based on social structure. Especially in Europe.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#37

Post by kordlessagain » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #27

murbard2 wrote: post #19

This isn't asking the hard question though: how did the oracle see the future?

I think first it would need to be established that she did in fact see the future.

This is an example of Positivism.

I think the primary problem with positivism is the knowledge about the universe is never fully attained, so it feels more like a confused reasoning process. The assumption the scientific method will explain everything someday is irrational. When is that going to happen? With more work? What positivism really is, is a commitment to a bunch of work in the future to "prove" something is this and not that. The future never arrives.

Mysticism is the flipside of that. A mystical approach builds a metaphor to exist that "makes sense" but can't really be tested or analyzed by scientific methods. Faith takes over there, where just believing something irrational to be true, makes it true. Maybe that includes visualizing something over and over again?

Between these two extremes sits a philosophy that holds that there is value in both kinds of knowledge, and that both can be used to improve our understanding of the world. This philosophy emphasizes the need for both scientific and spiritual knowledge in order to create a complete picture of reality.

Unfortunately, the scientific method is a bit annoying sometimes, given it's absolute insistence all things may be disproved. It's a little like a virus in that regard, growing without bounds or purpose, other than to try to avoid the mystical outlooks at all costs.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#38

Post by rapjr9 » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

Seems like the author is neglecting the possibility of human intervention. The priests and priestesses may have found a way to collect ethylene gas from the stream and released it intentionally at the right time. A trade secret so to speak. Hidden secrets in religion are not uncommon.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#39

Post by throwaway5752 » Mon, May 30, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

People speak in tongues at church because they are expected to, have seen it before, and they lie about it. It seems that should be the presumption in the case of Delphi, too, rather than a biochemical mechanism or "antipositivism".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking_in_tongues#Medical_re...

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#40

Post by JackFr » Mon, May 30, 2022, 6:00 PM UTC

anbende wrote: post #13

sfvisser wrote: post #6

Language shaping the way you think always feels off to me. Most languages are pretty much universal and unbiased and are capable of expressing an infinite amount of concepts. As easily as their negations, subtle variations, contextual dependencies, nuances, etc.

The hard version of this, sometimes called Strong Whorfianism (after the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis) is relatively easy to discredit. Imagine a system of gears. Turn them and adjust them in your mind. You’re thinking in images rather than language. The soft version of this, that our thinking is influenced by the limits of language is almost certainly true. To give a very HN example, think about the work done in different…

I see your point but I feel it’s a little bit weakened by the fact that you’re limited to using words to describe it.

Can you conceive of a thought experiment that is impossible to put into words? Yes or no is acceptable, but if the answer is yes I guess I’ll have to take your word for it.