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Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

nature.com

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Re: Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

#31
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had 2 die in family past year. Both rigorously vaxxed. Both sudden unexpected heart failure.

Correlation is not causation. It's funny that folks point at vaccines while ignoring pre existing conditions, yet with COVID it was the pre existing conditions and not COVID that were killing people.

Covid certainly has far a higher risk of heart damage on its own, and anecdote is not evidence, but there is a small amount of research that careless vaccination can cause damage as well.

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid... https://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-news/section/4/17917...

Re: Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

#32
I am wondering how much immune "budget" do humans have for vaccines? This topic is left unadressed and is extremely worrying, being an existential risk. Basically, the body has a limited amount of unspecialized naive T cells in its lifetime, mostly located/modulated in the thymus gland, which involute quickly with age.

I suppose that 1) vaccines increase the rate of specialisation of naive T cells to mature t cells (hence the number of naive t cells diminish supraphysically)and I also believe that

2) those specific mature T cells, generating covid spike protein specific antibodies, have lost some or total ability to fight non-covid diseases as a cost of specialization. 1) would increase thymus involution rate and therefore age speed of immunosupression.

2) would reduce generic immune ability (learning other pathogens)

3) I believe the increased immune profile after a vaccine induce a long lasting (at least 6 month) increase of accelerated aging process in humans, via increased inflammation and therefore apoptosis, DNA mutations and oxidative stress, although in a mild form and hence in the medium term asymptomatic.

Above all the premises I enumerated, the 2) is the one I would draw the most attention to, which can be reformulated as: do the repetitive administrations of a vaccine (here the 3 mRNA doses), reduce the effectiveness of the immune system for future non-COVID diseases, and even more importantly, does those doses reduce the immune learnability budget and therefore do those vaccines reduce the effectiveness of future vaccines against the next non-COVID pandemic? There has to be a limit to immune memory, the question is, after how many vaccines do the effect become non-negligible on aging?

study backing chronic inflammation and therefore accelerated aging: > vaccine-induced hypermetabolic lymph nodes https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34857663/

study backing the depletion of lymphocite T helper cell production: Study Shows Immune Cells Against Covid-19 Stay High in Number Six Months After Vaccination https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/....

Moreover, I have an issue understanding why would vaccine not massively lose effectiveness after the age of 70 since at 70 the thymus has ~completely involuted (although maybe the stem cells in the bone marrow suffice?).

Re: Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

#36

Quoted post unavailable.

> What were they even right about with the vaccine? The things it was tested for. Preventing hospitalization and death from Covid. Which the Pfizer, Moderna and even J&J shots are terrifically good at. > credibility is going to be lost if we don’t pull heads out of butts So? The people who matter mostly got the message. People who wanted protection mostly got it.

I have taken both jnj and Moderna. But I have to admit that the grandparent has a point. It feels it’s almost heretical to say, but the vaccines were terribly over-sold. In the beginning they were sold as traditional vaccines - prevention against infection not just serious disease. But very soon we saw “breakthrough infections” (not even written about anymore as they are so common) and the goal posts started being moved.

Public health establishment deserves a D- for their handling of the pandemic starting basically on day 1.

Re: Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

#37
post #29
post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

Developed countries tend to maintain rigorous public statistics on causes of death. There is no reason to fall back to anecdata. If you're paranoid that your particular country is manipulating data, look at some other developed country's data.

I live in Ontario, Canada. For a long period of time the province reported deaths _with_ COVID, not necessarily deaths _because of_ COVID [1]. So when public health officials and the govts do stuffs like this, I cannot blame people when they are skpetic of COVID data.

[1] https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-is-changing-how-it-report...

Re: Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

#39
post #2

There are no conclusions to draw here. The study doesn't "show" anything -- it indicates a need for further research. I'm disappointed that Nature.com is engaging in this kind of sensational journalism. From their own article: > He praises the study, which was difficult to perform because of the amount and quality of data, but adds that it is limited because it does not break the data down by key factors, such as the…

The problem is we've set-up asymmetric incentive structure. Say, there are some uncertainties regarding the risk and aftermath of COVID. If you genuinely underestimate the risk, then you are a pro-grandma killer and one of the worst human beings in the world. But if you overplay the risk, then you are an amazing human being whose only flaw is caring too much about human lives. Unfortunately this becomes another 'The…

No post body was provided.

Re: Long Covid risk falls only slightly after vaccination, study shows

#40

I am wondering how much immune "budget" do humans have for vaccines? This topic is left unadressed and is extremely worrying, being an existential risk. Basically, the body has a limited amount of unspecialized naive T cells in its lifetime, mostly located/modulated in the thymus gland, which involute quickly with age. I suppose that 1) vaccines increase the rate of specialisation of naive T cells to mature t cells (…

> I am wondering how much immune "budget" do humans have for vaccines? ... Basically, the body has a limited amount of unspecialized naive T cells in its lifetime

I'm not a medical professional, so I suspect that my opinion is just as much gibberish as yours clearly is, but with more self-awareness.

Anyway, why would that "budget" be "for vaccines" _only_ ? Vaccines trigger the same mechanism as actual viral attacks, so you may as well ask "does the human immune system have a limited budget to respond to repeated viral attacks". It's the same question. And consider what answer would have better evolutionary fitness.

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