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Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

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Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#31

Post by commandlinefan »

zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

> If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced

It already has been outsourced and then re-insourced as soon as the quality was evident.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#32

Post by joshstrange »

dnndev wrote: post #27

It’s more about trust than finances. Face to face and remote work within the companies legal boundaries is the safer choice. Remote work with no legal leverage is scary when you think about handing over company assets. But then again, many large companies have managers looking to climb the ladder so they outsource at all costs to make the budget look better- it’s a risky gamble and sometimes it just works. Most times…

> But then again, many large companies have managers looking to climb the ladder so they outsource at all costs to make the budget look better- it’s a risky gamble and sometimes it just works. Most times this ends with years of waste in other areas of the company.

This works in the short term, in the same way you could probably lay off 90% of your developers and keep thinks chugging along for a couple years (albeit with next to zero new development). These things take time to fully poison the host but the exec climbing the ladder doesn't care. They get the praise for cutting costs, they aren't responsible for the code/product, and they will jet off to some new company to ruin things before the shit hits the fan.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#33

Post by jghn »

bin_bash wrote: post #30
jghn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Both sides of this debate have been disingenuous. The remote-or-bust crowd always seems to assume salaries would stay the same. Most, not all, but most software development jobs don't require specialty skills. If the job can truly be done anywhere, why would we assume the answer will be to pay SF salaries all around the world? The must-be-in-office crowd tends to ignore that most of the time remote work mostly…

Even the most highly paid juniors (L3) don’t make 250K let alone 500K.

Yes, it was hyperbole.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#34

Post by tablespoon »

joshstrange wrote: post #26
michaelt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they were sitting around saying "The outsourcing of the 1990s failed because of poor communication; there's no replacement for regular face-to-face meetings"

I have no doubt there are execs sitting around thinking that, they are wrong but I don't doubt it. There are a how slew of reasons why outsourcing fails time and time again and "poor communication" isn't very high on that list.

> I have no doubt there are execs sitting around thinking that, they are wrong but I don't doubt it. There are a how slew of reasons why outsourcing fails time and time again and "poor communication" isn't very high on that list.

Poor communication a multiplying factor for all the other problems.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#35

Post by usrn »

vsskanth wrote: post #8

H1B visas are a lottery with Many don't realize how bad its gotten lately on the immigration front. Last year, USCIS wasted 160K green cards, this year they are on track to waste 200K green cards, simply because they are too slow to process paperwork. Companies are probably tired of all this uncertainty and legal overhead so they now offer relocation to their offices outside US if you have visa problems and to have e…

What's the difference between outsourcing and immigration? It's still taking jobs away from the native population.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#37

Post by joshstrange »

commandlinefan wrote: post #31
zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

> If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced It already has been outsourced and then re-insourced as soon as the quality was evident.

> It already has been outsourced and then re-insourced as soon as the quality was evident.

And you don't hear about it because no company wants to advertise eating crow. I once worked for a place that made a huge deal about "$comapnyName China" office opening. A few weeks later I was asked to review a project they did, 150+ hours logged, didn't follow any of our style guides, didn't work, showed a complete lack of understanding of the framework we were using. I redid the entire project in 8 hours. The "China branch" didn't last long after that, but it also was never mentioned again, they swept it under the rug and pretended it never existed.

I'm sure some morons will outsource their development, I'll find the smarter companies and work for them until the "who cares, it saves money" group is ousted or comes to their senses (unlikely).

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#38

Post by commandlinefan »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #10
zcw100 wrote: post #7

A better headline would have been, “Tech industry uses scare tactics to try and force people back into the office”. Been there, done that. If it could have been outsourced it would have already been outsourced. Do you really think they were sitting around saying,”I know they cost more but I’m too busy playing golf to bother” and they’re only getting around to it now?

Actually yes I do. Feel very strongly that the tech work from home movement is shining a light on something they don’t want a light shined on. They should be vehemently making cases that teams need to be in offices together and that “face to face is best” to keep their jobs in their citadel.

If work (of any kind) can only be done face-to-face, why do companies have satellite offices? I've never worked for a company with more than a few hundred employees that didn't have offices in multiple states and co-workers who had never met in person, yet still conducted business just fine remotely.

Re: Tech Industry Warns That More Remote-Work Jobs Are Headed Out of U.S.

#40

Post by joshstrange »

tablespoon wrote: post #34
joshstrange wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no doubt there are execs sitting around thinking that, they are wrong but I don't doubt it. There are a how slew of reasons why outsourcing fails time and time again and "poor communication" isn't very high on that list.

> I have no doubt there are execs sitting around thinking that, they are wrong but I don't doubt it. There are a how slew of reasons why outsourcing fails time and time again and "poor communication" isn't very high on that list. Poor communication a multiplying factor for all the other problems.

Agreed, "poor communication" can mean a number of things that are huge problems.

> "The outsourcing of the 1990s failed because of poor communication; there's no replacement for regular face-to-face meetings" reply

I was specifically talking about the progression of things like video/audio/text chat (think Zoom/Slack) but I get that I wasn't clear. I fixated on "there's no replacement for regular face-to-face meetings" which isn't true, and that alone wasn't the reason outsourcing failed.

Language barriers, cultural barriers, timezones, and the list goes on of things I group under "poor communication". These should not be scoffed at or downplayed.

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