Live data from Hacker News

Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

otherlife.co

31–40 of 99 posts

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#31
> The sex appeal of the Knowledge Graph derives from the fantasy of not having to decide what’s most important

I write way more notes because that decision is taken away from me.

> Not only will the graph tell you what’s most important

While I’m sure some people do, I never thought to use the graph for finding what’s important. It’s always been about the connection between topics rather than the number of connections. The act of consciously connecting the topic to another topic is a great way to internalise it.

The notes also do help me write blog posts when I want to. But their structures do not get determined by the graph.

The thing I like the most about having a graph is just doing a “wiki surfing” in your own wiki. It’s quite fun and sometimes I make new connections with an old topic.

I do agree that showing off how many nodes/connection your graph has is bullshit.

Despite the disagreements, I still quite liked the post :)

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#32

Anyone sharing a picture of their graph, or who even pretends to navigate/look at the graph as a graph in any useful way, is definitely a bullshitter. In my experience, the graph is just a consequence that is sometimes pretty to look at, and that's it. But what is it a consequence of ? I think there is a ton of value in taking notes (probably more value than in having notes), so what I get out of Obsidian, my PKM too…

When I created my own Roam clone from scratch, I completely left out the "knowledge graph". I agree it's a failed idea.

My clone is optimized for terminal usage, since the clunky javascript UI is the other flaw of Roam.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you recommend a workflow for obsidian? Or some pointers for resources. I am struggling to "get" how to take notes with it and I am feeling a lot of friction

i would focus on just taking notes on related topics, without much structure for a bit. try to link them together if they are on related ideas a bit. once you have a network of notes that feels a little less manageable (~100), i create a "map of content" where i link to all notes related to that concept, and in it i essentially tell a higher level story about how those notes relate to each other.

This is if he wants to take notes in the first place.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#34

Anyone sharing a picture of their graph, or who even pretends to navigate/look at the graph as a graph in any useful way, is definitely a bullshitter. In my experience, the graph is just a consequence that is sometimes pretty to look at, and that's it. But what is it a consequence of ? I think there is a ton of value in taking notes (probably more value than in having notes), so what I get out of Obsidian, my PKM too…

Yeah, the three things I get out of Obsidian compared to my previous approach of a generic text editor + folder of markdown are:

1. As you mention, I can just shove a todo in a note and then I have a note to query all of these so I can make sure I'm following up on things I should be. For me todo systems came and went but it took integrating at the point I'm keeping records when most "todo" items come in for one to stick.

2. Embedding can be kind of handy. I think there's more places I can use it, but I do it so I can e.g. embed my discussion of a ticket in both my 1:1 notes when reporting to more senior leaders, and also my personal log of what I did that day. It's not like a lifechanging moment but it makes me appear more professional and prepared when I'm not going "Hold on a moment, let me pull that up waits for JIRA to load", or having to search for files to open them up as I'd closed them down to avoid tab overload.

3. Templates. I have some e.g. for standup, for 1:1s with specific people, for a daily/weekly note (which includes some recurring todos in the template, to link back to point 1)

---

For the graphing features, yeah, I take a lot of notes, and a lot of them are leaf nodes apart from a few highly connected ones, and those tend to be stuff like "Weekly XYZ meeting agenda", rather than anything enlightening. Having a leaf node each for each ticket I'm tracking in my system or each day's standup is going to make any diagram an absolute mess.

However, the other thing I do use Obisidian for is my tabletop game sessions. These tend to have much more "stable" entities (Player character X, location Y, Maguffin Z). While I don't personally use the graph there, it at least looks much more sensible there to the extent that I could maybe imagine it makes sense for people using the tool in a creative writing/research context. People find mind maps valuable too, even if that never did it for me, so I can imagine people inclined in that way would appreciate basically hyperlinked mind maps.

---

For the point on whether such a structured note taking system is useful at all, I think it really depends on "Does the number of distinct items you need to keep track of exceed your mental organisational capacity to keep track of them?". When I was just a mid level developer, I never took personal notes. For the "now" period, if I had 4 topics on my mind it was a lot, and that was well within my capacity to keep track of. For longer term keeping, either it was useful technical information for _other_ developers as well and I shoved it in a shared wiki, or it was information about how the feature we're working on is evolving as we work on it, in which case it made sense to keep it recorded in a ticket or document. At that point, there was very little left that was valuable to write down but didn't go into some other shared document bucket.

But once my role changed to one where I am now also responsible for the work of other people, that's when things changed and where I needed a note taking system. It might be a very simple topic and we might have talked about it yesterday, but I have n things I'm working on, plus x team member's and their individual n things, plus things that are upcoming that need to be ready for the team to work on.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#35
post #30

I’ve tried a bunch of these sorts of tools. And nothing stuck over the years. But two things did after all, recently: 1. Using Bear.app. I realized that I just hated slow, sloggy note apps. Bear is native and very fast! Faster than Apple’s own Notes.app! 2. Not worrying about organizing too much. Especially upfront. I just start dumping everything. Then _maybe_ organize later. But more often not. Just leave it as is.…

> I’ve tried a bunch of these sorts of tools. And nothing stuck over the years.

Yeah same with me, I've tried many tools like Org-Roam inside Emacs which is yet another Zettelkasten type of system, doesn't really make sense for me.

So I just stuck to using plain text notes with whatever structure I want them to have, no standard structure, just whatever structure I want on a given day, and that is how I can actually get myself to write shit down, rather than wondering about structure and how this note links to that etc.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#36
I'm possibly one of those people who aren't genetically inclined to these kinds of applications...all I know is, if an app doesn't work seamlessly across MacOS, iOS/iPadOS and Windows, it's no good for me. Obsidian is great, but totally failed for me on the iPhone. I couldn't navigate at all. I don't know if that's my fault or Obsidian's, but that meant it was broken, and I moved on. (OneNote is great these days.)

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#37
》After only two weeks, my knowledge graph was utterly unintelligible and distressing. It's called combinatorial explosion.

I've built a few node design tools and this is one of the main problems I've had to deal with, how to keep users from building this forest of wires that won't let them see the trees, I mean, nodes. The only way around is limiting the "depth" of nodes the user can work on, requiring them to organize those in "scenes" and hide everything else that is distracting. Then we get from "graphs are beautiful, behold their complexity" to "graphs are useful".

I'm currently building a concept web for a new search engine, and I want users to explore it without getting lost in the forest. The problem is there once again.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#38
>...is genetic. Individuals blessed with high degrees of industriousness and orderliness...namely that most of the variance between individuals is genetic and relatively invulnerable to intervention.

This is a very strange thing to attribute to genetics, certainly not without some reference that supports it-- I could not find any. It seems much more likely to be a product of what you observed in your parents growing up, and perhaps more importantly how you were trained early on in your career.

That statement immediately put me on the defensive to be skeptical of the rest of what the author wrote, which was perhaps justified: the rest of the article was basically the author complaining about organization methods they didn't like and didn't think we're effective even though other people seem to get some value from them. And also that some people seem to brag about their system, which is entirely irrelevant to assessing actual utility. All of this while also coining their own buzz phrases, e.g., "brute linear willfulness".

TLDR: just another person claiming a tool is useless because it's not a tool they like.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#39

Anyone sharing a picture of their graph, or who even pretends to navigate/look at the graph as a graph in any useful way, is definitely a bullshitter. In my experience, the graph is just a consequence that is sometimes pretty to look at, and that's it. But what is it a consequence of ? I think there is a ton of value in taking notes (probably more value than in having notes), so what I get out of Obsidian, my PKM too…

This reminds me story: during my first (failed) PhD attempt, I had a supervisor working on a knowledge graph system for education. Great! I was doing something very similar, except I had an algorithm for presenting it in a linear way. So I shared my concern that students will not be able to understand and make use of a graph representation. Like almost everything I said in the following years, it was immediately dismissed and I quickly stopped trying to work on this with that guy.

Fast forward 2-3 years later, I ask about a student that was somewhat working on that project with this supervisor, he replied "oh, I stopped working on that, it doesn't work, student are confused by the graph!" In the meantime, I've also read a paper in another field that said users don't understand graph representation.

I still think that graphs can be useful for knowledge management, but it has to stay an implementation details not shown to the user.

Re: Personal Knowledge Management Is Bullshit

#40

I hope this isn't true, hah. I don't really invest in any existing PKMs but i nevertheless spend a fair bit of time writing the foundation of my own. Regardless of the implementation, i want something to archive and/or retain (in the working memory sense) my conclusions. As without repetition i feel like a majority of what i read, and any conclusions therein, evaporate. Maybe the author would argue that if i want to…

I see knowledge as being a dag where the edges are directional and where the edges actually mean something, meaning multiple types of edges. Generic backlinks are nowhere near sufficient and lead to the sort of combinatorial explosion the author talks about. But when you have "statement" and "statement" necessitates "conclusion", (the edge means "necessitates") then reviewing the graph over time can actually lead toward you paring down the graph and distilling it to the knowledge that is most useful to you.
Post reply on HN