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Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

theatlantic.com

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Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#31

Post by V_Terranova_Jr »

photochemsyn wrote: post #17
boomboomsubban wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story is about whether Gellman was a spy like many in the intelligence community including Clapper claim he is. It's about his works with Snowden's documents, not Snowden himself.

What I don't understand is why Clapper wasn't at the very least charged with perjury for lying to Congress under oath. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/5-people-who-lied-...

Who would do the charging? The executive branch for whom it was most convenient for him to ? The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic? You need a critical mass to pursue any form of actual accountability - lone brave senators or congresspersons won't have enough momentum to get past the activation energy barrier.

Prior comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28098290

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#32

Post by ratsmack »

sha256sum wrote: post #18
whatshisface wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no real evidence that the NSA kills its enemies or even that the CIA does when those enemies are American citizens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton Context: “ In 1967, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) identified Hampton as a radical threat. It tried to subvert his activities in Chicago, sowing disinformation among black progressive groups and placing a counterintelligence operative in the local Panthers organization. In December 1969, Hampton was drugged, shot and killed in his bed during a predawn raid at hi…

I suspect there are many more that we'll never hear about. The three letter agencies have the expertise and manpower to make anyone's death appear accidental or from natural causes.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#33

Post by willis936 »

photochemsyn wrote: post #17
boomboomsubban wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story is about whether Gellman was a spy like many in the intelligence community including Clapper claim he is. It's about his works with Snowden's documents, not Snowden himself.

What I don't understand is why Clapper wasn't at the very least charged with perjury for lying to Congress under oath. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/5-people-who-lied-...

You're allowed to lie to congress if asked about state secrets. You just need to make sure you classify all of your shady activities.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#34

Post by mc32 »

photochemsyn wrote: post #7

Shouldn't the title be "Espionage or Whistleblowing?" Journalism would just be reporting on the events. For example, Daniel Ellsberg, leaking Pentagon Papers - basically everyone now agrees that was legitimate whistleblowing as it proved leading government figures were lying through their teeth to the American public about the reality on the ground in Vietnam. In contrast, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen were CIA and…

Isn't lying to congress punishable by up to 5 years in prison? Has mr. Clapper served any time for his perjury?

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#35

Post by theknocker »

mc32 wrote: post #34
photochemsyn wrote: post #7

Shouldn't the title be "Espionage or Whistleblowing?" Journalism would just be reporting on the events. For example, Daniel Ellsberg, leaking Pentagon Papers - basically everyone now agrees that was legitimate whistleblowing as it proved leading government figures were lying through their teeth to the American public about the reality on the ground in Vietnam. In contrast, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen were CIA and…

Isn't lying to congress punishable by up to 5 years in prison? Has mr. Clapper served any time for his perjury?

No, and now he gets paid by CNN to spread more lies.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#36

Post by theknocker »

photochemsyn wrote: post #17
boomboomsubban wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story is about whether Gellman was a spy like many in the intelligence community including Clapper claim he is. It's about his works with Snowden's documents, not Snowden himself.

What I don't understand is why Clapper wasn't at the very least charged with perjury for lying to Congress under oath. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/5-people-who-lied-...

No post body was provided.

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#37

Post by stuxnet »

whatshisface wrote: post #25
boomboomsubban wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

So I guess Obama ordered the death of a citizen of his own country. So much for my defense.

They got his 16 year old son two weeks later, also a US citizen.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Aw...

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#38

Post by pmoriarty »

V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #31
photochemsyn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why Clapper wasn't at the very least charged with perjury for lying to Congress under oath. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/5-people-who-lied-...

Who would do the charging? The executive branch for whom it was most convenient for him to ? The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic? You need a critical mass to pursue any form of actual accountability - lone brave senators or congresspersons won't have enough momentum to get past the activation energy barrier. Prio…

"The legislative branch, many of who see taking on the "intelligence community" as something for which they would get branded as non-patriotic?"

I've never gotten the impression that Americans have very much love for the intelligence community. The military, yes, the intelligence community, no.

Congress has slapped the intelligence committee before (in the aftermath of the Church Committee[1]).

It's just that post-9/11 the powers of America's intelligence agencies were tremendously increased and they were given a much longer leash.

Now that 9/11 is more than 20 years in the past they might get slapped again, but it'll probably take a bigger scandal than Snowden's revelations to do it.. and such a scandal has to happen in peace time if it's to have any effect.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

Re: Espionage or Journalism? After the Snowden NSA Leaks (2020)

#39

Post by makeitdouble »

bediger4000 wrote: post #2

The "Snowden Associate" in the title is Bart Gellman, a long time Washington Post reporter who's covered national security issues in some detail for years and years. Just looking at his Wikipedia entry, he's been a thorn in the side of the DoD and other authorities forever. This is not to make light or, or poo-poo his concerns or the counter-measures he takes, but rather to note that he should be watching his back af…

> "Never charge someone more money than it costs to kill you."

This is so clever, while being completely impractical when dealing with governing entities. Depending on where you live, pricing a service for your local police could become a very difficult exercise.

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