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Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

mattsclancy.substack.com

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Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#31

Post by throwawaygh »

russdill wrote: post #20
tempnow987 wrote: post #2

This primarily I think applies to ACADEMIC science. The funding game in academic science is kind of miserable. Researchers eager to maintain positions for their post docs and grad students etc pay high levels of attention to which way the funding story is going -> ie, telling funders what they want to hear is the key skill. This is not always focused on new ideas. That's because it is pretty horrible not to get funde…

The funding game is a miserable slog, but people are in academia because they want to do their research. If they wanted to use their expertise to obtain a paycheck, there are typically much better opportunities to do so.

> but people are in academia because they want to do their research

Which is perfectly fine as long as those people don't go asking the NSF or NIH for money to fund students.

I'll never understand why we give egomaniacs funding for phd students, and it's something I actively work to get the panel to select against when evaluating any proposal that includes lines for PhD students or post-docs (ie all of them).

CS profs: if you want employees for your ego trip, start a damn company. Your students are not employees, and if we're all honest, most of the benefit of the grant we're giving you will be the students it produces. So sayth this regular panel member.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#32

Post by Retric »

beloch wrote: post #28

The notion that established field leaders, like large trees, stifle the undergrowth of new ideas, is not new. It is a partially self-correcting problem. Leaders die. However, there's no telling what some of the undergrowth that sprouted at the wrong time might have grown into were it given more light. Asking how we can do better is worthwhile. A worse problem manifests when fields come to be dominated and policed by…

In many ways I think the common perception in the 19th century was essentially correct.

It’s easy to look back on people and think them fools, but the odds of a young student in 1830 making huge strides in Physics was tiny while many other fields where wide open.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#33

Post by BurningFrog »

sva_ wrote: post #4
tmoertel wrote: post #3

Physicist and Bayesian pioneer E. T. Janes had a pithy take on this theme: In any field, the Establishment is seldom in pursuit of the truth, because it is composed of those who sincerely believe that they are already in possession of it. From Probability Theory: The Logic of Science, E.T. Jaynes, 2003.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- Max Planck

Often paraphrased as "Science advances one funeral at a time".

Perhaps increasing life expectancy is what's holding progress back?

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#34

Post by photochemsyn »

On this, I think you'd want to look more broadly at whether the superstar's university had people on the grant committee at the respective funding institution:

> "Well, we can say it’s not simply a case of these dominant researchers vetoing grant proposals and publication from rival researchers. Only a tiny fraction of them were in positions of formal academic power, such as sitting on NIH grant review committees or serving as journal editors, when they passed away. So what else could it be?"

That's not really how those clubs work; they get their old friends and pals to do the dirty work.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#35

Post by falcor84 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #33
sva_ wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- Max Planck

Often paraphrased as "Science advances one funeral at a time". Perhaps increasing life expectancy is what's holding progress back?

That makes sense, but I like the idea of longevity, and wouldn't want to their the baby with the bathwater. Maybe instead we could have some "term limit" for academic work?

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#36

Post by edgyquant »

KarlKemp wrote: post #9
tmoertel wrote: post #3

Physicist and Bayesian pioneer E. T. Janes had a pithy take on this theme: In any field, the Establishment is seldom in pursuit of the truth, because it is composed of those who sincerely believe that they are already in possession of it. From Probability Theory: The Logic of Science, E.T. Jaynes, 2003.

It's funny that the article rather explicitly rejects such theories of malfeasance/corruption/etc. and, instead, points to cognitive effects interacting with the decision-making process as a plausible cause that is compatible with assumptions of good faith and competence. So, arguably, the only person confident of being in possession of the truth is the one with the ready-made cynical quote.

People don’t have to be acting in bad faith for their biases to shine through. It’s quite possible for authority to be acting in good faith and lack the insight to see some break through.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#37

Post by DoreenMichele »

I will suggest genuinely new ideas are inherently hard to effectively express. It's like you want to speak Russian but everyone else speaks something else and Russian is a language you must invent on the fly while everyone assumes you are saying something else in some other language and that something else sounds like gibberish.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#38

Post by R0b0t1 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #37

I will suggest genuinely new ideas are inherently hard to effectively express. It's like you want to speak Russian but everyone else speaks something else and Russian is a language you must invent on the fly while everyone assumes you are saying something else in some other language and that something else sounds like gibberish.

Ah yeah, that happens to me a lot. Especially if it's within a field ripe for quacks. It can be very hard to keep people from attributing some straw argument to you and then facing that as opposed to discussing something new.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#39

Post by gmt2027 »

Retric wrote: post #32
beloch wrote: post #28

The notion that established field leaders, like large trees, stifle the undergrowth of new ideas, is not new. It is a partially self-correcting problem. Leaders die. However, there's no telling what some of the undergrowth that sprouted at the wrong time might have grown into were it given more light. Asking how we can do better is worthwhile. A worse problem manifests when fields come to be dominated and policed by…

In many ways I think the common perception in the 19th century was essentially correct. It’s easy to look back on people and think them fools, but the odds of a young student in 1830 making huge strides in Physics was tiny while many other fields where wide open.

Max Planck famously said science advances one funeral at a time. J. J. Thomson discovered the electron through his work on cathode rays in 1897. Up to that point the orthodoxy was that atoms were the smallest unit of matter. However there was evidence from the mid 19th century. What Thompson actually did was finally come up with incontrovertible experimental confirmation of a subatomic particle. The electron and other subatomic particles were the gateway to the rapid advance of 20th century physics.

The same pattern repeated itself in the early 20th century. Truly revolutionary ideas may take a generation to gain popular acceptance.

They had vacuum tubes in the 19th century, atomic theory and Maxwell's equations by the 1860s. I find it difficult to believe that they were incapable of isolating the electron.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#40

Post by nvr219 »

tempnow987 wrote: post #2

This primarily I think applies to ACADEMIC science. The funding game in academic science is kind of miserable. Researchers eager to maintain positions for their post docs and grad students etc pay high levels of attention to which way the funding story is going -> ie, telling funders what they want to hear is the key skill. This is not always focused on new ideas. That's because it is pretty horrible not to get funde…

DEI stuff is not at all what's blocking new ideas in science, but your post implies it.
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