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UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

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Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#31

Post by KarlKemp »

varajelle wrote: post #30
KarlKemp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grounds under our feet, i. e. reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#/media/File:De...

Democracy ≠ politically stable

True, in the sense that being healthy is also less stable than being dead.

Wrong, in any meaningful way, and obviously so: the linked index rates democracy on multiple dimensions, including protection of civil liberties, electoral process and pluralism, functioning of government, political participation, and political culture. It’s impossible to rate high on all those issues and not be “stable” in any meaningful sense.

FWIW Morocco is also quite stable, among the best both in Africa and the Arab world.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#32

Post by mike_hearn »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #6

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.Petersburg to Marocco.

Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales.

But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakthrough tomorrow the political reasons to go direct would still be there. The EU wants the UK to be subservient to the Commission for ideological, political and economic reasons. The UK doesn't want to be back in that situation. The EU would absolutely make energy transit dependent on all manner of entirely irrelevant topics - fish is the current one but there would be others - and thus making electricity supplies dependent on the EU would end up being equivalent to being sucked back in, not as a member state but as a vassal state.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#33

Post by nbevans »

mike_hearn wrote: post #32
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #6

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.Petersburg to Marocco.

Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales. But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakt…

Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#34

Post by tremon »

Y-bar wrote: post #28
_dain_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shallower water

I am not knowledgeable in high voltage transmission, but in which ways does the shallower water depth affect the transmission line?

It doesn't; it affects the cost of laying it. The cable must be anchored to the sea floor at regular intervals and it's cheaper to place an anchor at a few hundred meters depth (the coastal shelves) than at 3 km (depth of the Biscay abyssal plain).

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#35

Post by mike_hearn »

seszett wrote: post #29
nerdawson wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make it dependent on the countries it hopped through and subject to their political whims. The Gibraltar issue crops up every now and then for instance so having control over an electrical connection gives the Spanish government more leverage. Same with France and the dispute over fishing waters. Only recently France were threatening to cut off power to Jersey.

> Only recently France were threatening to cut off power to Jersey. Just want to add that it was a bit different than that. More exactly, an English newspaper asked a French official if cutting electricity off was a possibility and that official answered nothing more than "the treaty that was agreed upon does include this as a possibility". It was never an actual threat or in any plan at the time.

That's not quite correct:

[Europe Minister] Clément Beaune, who is a close ally of the French president, Emmanuel Macron, said action would be decided on within days and discussions were already in motion .... [Beaune] added, "We defend our interests. We do it nicely, and diplomatically, but when that doesn’t work we take measures. The Channel Islands, the UK, are dependent on us for their energy supply. They think they can live on their own and badmouth Europe as well. And because it doesn’t work, they indulge in one-upmanship, and in an aggressive way"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jers...

"Reducing supplies (of electricity to Jersey) is possible, but cutting the power to every Jersey resident this winter is something that will not happen and something that I do not want," Europe Minister Clement Beaune told BFM-TV in an interview.

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/france-could-reduce-...

France could cut electricity supply to UK Channel Island Jersey unless a post-Brexit fishing agreement is respected, Maritime Minister Annick Girardin told the French parliament May 4.

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight...

French fishermen are struggling to obtain fishing licenses allowing them to keep working in U.K. waters, including in Jersey. They must show they have been fishing in these waters from 2012 to 2016 using GPS data, which some don't have. "As you know, the [Brexit] agreement contains retaliatory measures ... So as far as Jersey is concerned, I would remind you, for example, of the transport of electricity via submarine cables. So we have the means, and even though I'm sorry it has come to this, we will do so if we have to," she told the French parliament.

https://www.politico.eu/article/fishing-brexit-eu-uk-jersey/

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#36

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

qwedf wrote: post #9

The latest Doomberg does a great job in pointing out the practical flaws. https://doomberg.substack.com/p/20000-volts-under-the-sea "The Xlinks project is a pretty good concept, and yet…it needs access to materials already claimed by many others at prices increasing by the day, it needs to build an entire HVDC industry in Britain from the ground up, and it needs money, lots of it."

How much?

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#37

Post by Kognito »

giorgioz wrote: post #16
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #6

This sounds like brexiteer project. Doubt this will actually happen. 3800 km of undersea HVDC cable just to circumvent the EU. 3800 km is the distance from St.Petersburg to Marocco.

Yes it does, I'm not sure why they can't just put wind turbines in the UK. I'm sure there is plenty of wind there too. Also it would seem the south of France or Portugal would be much closer for the solar part.

For context the UK is already massively invested in wind turbines, with a lot more investment going into off-shore farms. On a good windy day, current capacity might satisfy ~40% of grid demand and this will only increase. However, the wind doesn't always blow and a cache of coal-fired power stations are kept on hand to quickly be able to plug the gap.

If this is economical enough - I'd be all for it rather than paying energy companies to keep coal-fired power stations ready to belch out smog at a moments notice.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#38

Post by KarlKemp »

nbevans wrote: post #33
mike_hearn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales. But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakt…

Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.

The EU does not think of the UK in that way.

In fact it tends not to think of the UK at all, these days.

As to being "fair game": that's true, in the sense that the EU will place the interests of member states over those of the UK. That dynamic must be among the least surprising developments of history, considering it is both obvious and formed the core of every serious prediction in the run-up to Brexit.

There was plenty of swagger back in those days with fantasies of renewed UK superpower domineering the EU and extracting every concession it can think of. "Fantasy" because that's just not how it works if the other party makes up 60 % of your foreign trade, but you make up less than 10 % of theirs.

So here we are now, with the UK coming up with these harebrained schemes that feel like some party organized with the specific purpose of not inviting your ex.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#39

Post by bdauvergne »

blibble wrote: post #17
35mm wrote: post #3

Why not the south of Spain? Just as much sun and more politically stable.

increasing energy dependence on the EU seems unwise given its attempts to use it for political leverage: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/05/france-uk-jers... the government agrees: https://news.sky.com/story/jersey-fishing-dispute-frances-si... (and has denied construction of new interconnectors to France since) Spain would definitely use an interconnector as leverage re: Gibraltar

UK which of course never used unrelated subject like fishing rights or immigration as a political leverage. \s

Every country in the EU submit to the majority law, that's the idea of an union, even France or Germany do not have everything to their liking every time.

Re: UK-Morocco 10GW Renewable Electricity Interconnector Planned

#40

Post by pydry »

nbevans wrote: post #33
mike_hearn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit isn't mentioned anywhere and the physics of it would be the same regardless of the EU existing or not. The reason to go direct to Morocco are that transmission through regular AC grids would lose virtually all the power before it gets anywhere near the UK. 10GW is a hell of a load and you can't just pretend a grid is a bathtub at these scales. But as you brought it up, even if there was a semi-conductor breakt…

Exactly. The last couple years has really let the mask slip on what the EU stands for and they've made it expressly clear how they intend to treat the UK going forward - despite the UK's best efforts to forge a genuinely strong relationship, this has been rebuffed at every opportunity. We are "fair game" to them now. So it makes complete sense to design future energy projects with sovereignty in mind.

The tories have been negotiating in bad faith on Brexit since day 1 and never really stopped. Stuff like the Internal Market Bill etc
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