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Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

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Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#31

Samsung losing out to Mediatek is pretty hilarious on its own, given that Mediatek was once known for ultra-cheap, piss poor performing crap [1] and copyright issues [2]. Back some years when I had one of the first CAT rugged phones, which was based on Mediatek, I happened to look at a kernel code dump from them on Github and had I known back then what I know today I could have easily netted me some decent payout for…

Didn't Mediatek also hire open source developers (or at least one very notable one) to work on their wifi drivers in the mainline kernel?

In [2], I'm seeing sensors (not made by Mediatek), GPU drivers (Mali, ask arm on that one), and RF (usually regulatory; legalism?), and whatever else is in that textdump. Is there anything that actually does an analysis? Even the blog source eventually just said they didn't know.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify, is this with or without Aaron Franklin brisket for lunch?

This has shot right over my head, but as a google suggests the place is well regarded, I’m going to say ‘with’…

We worked hard and we worked well together. We did whatever it took to succeed. Sometimes that meant working 20 hours days on some global supply chain project. I worked with a lot of really great people and a lot of terrific engineers. Best users I've ever had.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#33
post #10

Even in the Bay Area, the Samsung culture is extremely top-down and overwork focused. I’ve heard too many stories of whole departments needing to throw everything out and build something totally different at the very end of year-long projects because on an executive’s whims. On the other hand their cafeteria food is supposedly very good (especially if you like Korean and Japanese).

> the Samsung culture is extremely top-down and overwork focused Allow me to add some context. The Samsung culture could be described as militaristic, with accompanying rank and ceremony, therefore I can see how you identified the top-down chain-of-command relationships. [edited]

I genuinely have no idea what this appeal to ancient cultural authority is meant to convey, especially since virtually everyone was destitute and had no human rights for the overwhelming majority of human history.

That a preindustrial society existed for 5,000 years with very little change has no bearing at all on how a multinational business ought to be run in a modern society. In fact, I would argue that technological advances became possible precisely because we blew apart many of these entrenched power structures.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#34

It has been clear to us for years that Samsung has baaad internal communication issues. When you're at the forefront of technology, you're bound to trip up as bets and explorations don't pan out. Humans being humans, mistakes will happen, but they must be recognized to be corrected and prevented in the future. It's clear that Samsung culture prevents people from admitting mistakes, which of course only leads to more…

> It has been clear to us for years that Samsung has baaad internal communication issues... It's clear that Samsung culture prevents people from admitting mistakes... Jesus H. Christ on a fucking hockey stick. I doubt I've ever read such a breathless hit piece with so many unsupported assertions summarily presented as fact. I worked for Samsung Semiconductor for ten years and left as a software engineering manager. N…

NB: Jason is referring to "S2" aka Samsung Austin Semiconductor. I'm familiar with Jason's previous comments in threads about Samsung, but outside of that I don't know him (even, say, by name). This makes sense, given the separation between the work of an SE manager and the actual day-to-day operations that are involved with getting wafers fabbed and shipped.

I worked at SAS in lots of different areas—Metro, Photo, and PIE (process integration).

The emotional defense above notwithstanding (which I'd characterize as not actually being supported, either...), SAS indeed has very, very deep cultural problems that make for a shockingly bad example of how to do engineering in a large organization. There are several factors contributing to this.

SAS doesn't treat information systems, or things IT-related generally, as an engineering concern. If it doesn't look like a materials science problem, SAS doesn't have the capacity to critically evaluate its impact on rates of production and yield.

Problems, though, range from lots of things, like:

- far too many things in-fab being handled with pen and paper

- reports that have to be tediously assembled manually, so they get sent out once a day, while realistically they should be available to an engineer at any given time (behind a button that generates them on the fly instead of throwing $45k/year technicians at the problem like a 1960s-era secretary pool)

- workers committed to this state of affairs remaining so indefinitely

- Conway-style balkanization and groups who have no idea what their role is ("are they asking me or are they telling me?")

- a bunch of dumb macho shit that is used to prevent critical productivity problems from being addressed because being lazy and not addressing it is somehow virtuous and not lazy—it's the application of basic engineering principles to eliminate a problem that's lazy!

- an effect that I have no way to describe except as the proliferation of mid-40s to 50s men of mediocre talent (to a degree that's even worse than what you can expect to see elsewhere, generally)

- an overreliance on the labor pool of people with military experience / government work for no reason other than they've been conditioned to survive in the kind of bureaucratic senselessness that SAS exemplifies

- unabashed credentialism, which gets people hired who shouldn't be

- Microsoft Office products being abused for everything—including areas where a different Microsoft Office product would be the most appropriate tool for the job (reaching for PowerPoint when the problem calls for Word—or any word processor)

- work showstoppers caused by truly ridiculous problems, like Windows crashing a half a dozen times a day; Caps Lock on a fab tool keeping people from remoting in from within the office, so they have to suit up, go into the fab, press the Caps Lock key, and return to their desk and resume work; lots of monkeying around just to share a file with someone, because everything has to be ferried through a proprietary document sharing system that amounts to a crippled, quasi-web-based thing that wants to be Windows Explorer-cum-Google Drive

- unit parts (i.e. manufacturing divisions) basically re-discovering/re-inventing the value version of control and implementing it in an ad hoc way for the tools that they ineract with, poorly—not to mention all opportunities for human error (which does happen regularly but no one does anything about it because 40% of the job is CYA and the CYA approach tends to be "don't let anyone find out this happened")

- tons of janky-ass software from S1, like "Simax", which is written in a proprietary Lisp-ish(?) that uses ActiveX to run in an IE9-10-11 window and that re-invents its own window management and basic form controls, was never fully localized into English (so you're clicking buttons with terse messages in Hangul that still don't make sense even if understanding the language is no problem), and times out and ends your session if you look away from it for 10 minutes (or whatever)

- overall just really bad engineering discipline; people putting wafers on hold and not being clear about they're expecting to do with them next or what they need someone else to do; people inventing new acronyms all over the place (because job security and also "mediocre talents") and using them liberally in the notes they do leave for others; people not documenting why something happened, which also happens to help when covering something up and hoping that no one has the time budget to untangle things to the point where it's obvious/incontrovertible that something did go wrong; also lots of people not having a dedicated workstation of their own, so when shifts change they have to be out of their seat so it can be ready—no putting in a little extra time to make sure that the kinds of fires that were put out that day won't just happen again tomorrow and the day after, ad infinitum

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Samsung culture is extremely top-down and overwork focused Allow me to add some context. The Samsung culture could be described as militaristic, with accompanying rank and ceremony, therefore I can see how you identified the top-down chain-of-command relationships. [edited]

I genuinely have no idea what this appeal to ancient cultural authority is meant to convey, especially since virtually everyone was destitute and had no human rights for the overwhelming majority of human history. That a preindustrial society existed for 5,000 years with very little change has no bearing at all on how a multinational business ought to be run in a modern society. In fact, I would argue that technologi…

As someone who grew up overseas, I can tell you that most of the world does not feel as you do. Cultural differences and identities go far in explaining the reason why things are the way they are. And the rest of the world doesn't shy away from it.

I am sure that what you wrote is true from your perspective and have therefor edited my comment so as to not produce discomfort.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#36
post #5

There is a Facebook group with 100k+ members dedicated solely to the poor engineering, design, and fabrication of their refrigerators - [SAMSUNG REFRIGERATOR RECALL U.S.A. NOW] - https://www.facebook.com/groups/1520337151601316/

99% of which most likely don't even own one, and also partake in the other peculiar groups spreading the notion that dirty, foreign brands are dangerous and unreliable.

I have a Samsung fridge. It singlehandedly convinced me never to buy another Samsung appliance. The reputation is legit.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#37
post #26

The work culture at Samsung being toxic is something I have some familiarity with, as I used to know some folks who were working there. It’s a very top down company and the lower tier folks aren’t necessarily encouraged to question things, but more of a “do as I say”. The legislation aspect is really concerning but not surprising as chaebols have an iron grip on the Korean economy. Tough times for Samsung, but in a l…

I used to work at SAS and can corroborate the "top down" nature of the organization. "We just need to copy Korea" is not a good narrative if you want to keep high-quality American engineers interested in a long term career path with you. I lasted barely 3 years before the lack of volition got to me. Went to contract for a video game developer afterwards (huge pay cut) just to clear my mind and reconnect with reality.

Went to contract for a video game developer to clear my mind and reconnect with reality.

Damn, that's really saying something about your former employer.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#38
While Samsung's culture could be considered toxic, blaming their recent issues on culture would need more backing. Samsung has seen good growth and has been one of the top semiconductor companies for the past decade. It's not like their culture drastically changed in the recent years. It's the same "toxic" culture that got them here and blaming the culture for their recent hiccups just seem like a sensationalist writing.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of which most likely don't even own one, and also partake in the other peculiar groups spreading the notion that dirty, foreign brands are dangerous and unreliable.

I have a Samsung fridge. It singlehandedly convinced me never to buy another Samsung appliance. The reputation is legit.

What kind of issues are you seeing? Naively, a fridge seems like such a simple device that I'm curious how they screwed it up so badly that it's developed an anti-following.

Re: Samsung Electronics cultural issues causing disasters in foundry, LSI, DRAM

#40
post #38

While Samsung's culture could be considered toxic, blaming their recent issues on culture would need more backing. Samsung has seen good growth and has been one of the top semiconductor companies for the past decade. It's not like their culture drastically changed in the recent years. It's the same "toxic" culture that got them here and blaming the culture for their recent hiccups just seem like a sensationalist writ…

Intel had toxic culture since Brian Krzanich took the lead in 2013, around the switch to 14nm.

His mistakes weren't seen clearly until almost 2019, when it became obvious 10nm was a disaster, and 14nm++++++++ was their only workable product.

We're still seeing it today as Intel has 250w TDP products competing with AMD 140w TDP products.

Semiconductors is a space where mistakes take a while to bit you.

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