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What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

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Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#31

Post by IAmEveryone »

ElectricalUnion wrote: post #18
xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

> The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Electric heaters are 100% efficient in transforming joules to heat. The powerplant/transmission lines are the issue in this case.

Yes, but when the electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels, that process is only 40% or so efficient, whereas using the heat directly is lossless.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#32

Post by KptMarchewa »

helij wrote: post #29
reducesuffering wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what of your Kosovar Albanian neighbors? US and EU were there to stop the conflict that caused 5 times more of them to be killed. No one in their right mind could make the case for involvement to be around oil or money, as opposed to humanitarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War Serbia supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine is proof enough of who the actual aggressors are.

Don't spread lies. Serbia is not supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine. For proof please check how they voted in UN. They condemned the Russian agression on Ukraine and voted to suspend Russia from Human Rights Council. Your Wikipedia link is actually much more balanced and not black and white as your obvious anti-Serb sentiment.

And then Vucic just mouthed at EU and US. UN is nothing.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#33

Post by reducesuffering »

helij wrote: post #29
reducesuffering wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what of your Kosovar Albanian neighbors? US and EU were there to stop the conflict that caused 5 times more of them to be killed. No one in their right mind could make the case for involvement to be around oil or money, as opposed to humanitarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War Serbia supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine is proof enough of who the actual aggressors are.

Don't spread lies. Serbia is not supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine. For proof please check how they voted in UN. They condemned the Russian agression on Ukraine and voted to suspend Russia from Human Rights Council. Your Wikipedia link is actually much more balanced and not black and white as your obvious anti-Serb sentiment.

What lie am I spreading? Ok, I'll grant that saying "Serbia" as whole supporting Russia is incorrect, I should've said "many Serbians." Yes, Serbia's recent UN vote condemning the invasion of Ukraine is appreciated, given their usual Putin-friendliness. But the state still frequently sides with Russia on issues like invading and annexing Crimea:

https://balkaninsight.com/2020/12/08/serbia-backs-russia-aga...

What other non-Russian country would this pro-"invasion of Ukraine" rally happen?

https://twitter.com/SerbiaBased/status/1499815809065132033?r...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/30/world/europe/ukraine-serb... and https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-presidential...

explain more details:

"Serbia, a traditional Russian ally, has rejected calls from the European Union and the United States to join in sanctions against Moscow, citing national interests. The country’s representative to the United Nations did vote in favor of a resolution condemning Moscow’s attack on Ukraine as a violation of international law.

Despite the Serbian government saying it is seeking EU membership, Vucic and his allies have refrained from condemning Russia over the invasion, a possible sign they want to avoid alienating pro-Russia voters ahead of Sunday’s election.

Thousands of people in Serbia have turned out for pro-Putin rallies during the five-week invasion, waving Russian flags and displaying the letter Z - a symbol seen on Russian military vehicles in Ukraine. The support for Moscow makes Serbia somewhat of an outlier in Europe."

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#34

Post by radu_floricica »

dontlaugh wrote: post #26
martindbp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

I remember a time when my Serbian neighbours were bombed by the US. As a Romanian, I fear the US and the EU far more than Russia.

You're a minority, not only here but also in Romania. To be perfectly frank, most of us appreciate being in EU exactly for the checks and balances it provides. I DON'T trust our leadership (or electorate) not to lead us to killing innocent people 10 years down the line. It's the kind of stupid we don't usually do, but still, if it somehow happens, I'm happy that there will be NATO bombers there to stop us.

What happened in Serbia was stupidly simple, and I really can't imagine how Serbian citizens rationalize this: Yugoslavia broke up, but Serbs wanted to keep their tiny empire even if then had to force ex-members. And while fighting, some ugly ethnic and religious animosities came up, with pretty horrible results.

It was about as clearly white and black as what's going on in Ukraine right now.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#35

Post by martindbp »

radu_floricica wrote: post #23
martindbp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of…

> equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements

> Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed

Yeah, maybe you're right and the outrage will blow over, but maybe not. I can't speak for the national sentiment of Germans or Romanians, but this feels different to me. Maybe it's given our history with Russia, but we sent anti-tank missiles this time, as a "neutral" country. We haven't provided lethal aid to a country since the Winter War, which again was Russian aggression. This is different than plastic bags.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#36

Post by yakak »

ghostwriter wrote: post #30
yakak wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't waste energy for over heating you have it for industry. Russia doesn't even provide half of the EU's gas or oil so extreme rationing of household and transport energy would mean very little rationing elsewhere.

It doesn’t have to be a half of the EU supply to cause shortages and shutdowns. And shortages at factories cause a ripple effect of supply chain disruptions in many dependent industries [1] [1] https://m-delfi-lt.translate.goog/verslas/verslas/article.ph...

You avoid all discussion of rationing and rationality and discuss freemarket putzery where you run out of industrial energy because demand from people who are cost insensitive may taper too slowly.

If the the EU can't implement rationing it should immediately impose a 100%+ tax on gas so it can start distributing that money back unevenly to prevent economic damage where gas is needed, pressure down gas usage, and prevent profits from going to Putain.

0% tax is the pathological case where all of society uses energy whether it needs it or not and government has no funds to work with and the suppliers take all profits from limiting supply.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#37

Post by radu_floricica »

martindbp wrote: post #35
radu_floricica wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of…

> equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements > Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed Yeah, maybe you're right and the outrage will blow over, but maybe not. I can't speak for the national sentiment of Germans or Romanians, but t…

Oh, it's big. It's definitely big. For us here it's even bigger than you might think - a good part of the reason why eastern europe is still so much behind is russian influence. Getting rid of that means finally picking up the pace and realizing our potential. Not to mention Ukraine... 44 million people free and in EU. The "good ending" here could be incredibly good.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#38

Post by raxxorraxor »

martindbp wrote: post #21
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a…

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

Electric heaters also warm indirectly when the next power bill comes. Using that anger will probably produce some heat as well.

People would burn wood, plastic and tires before using this tactic.

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