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A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

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Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#31

Post by dragonwriter »

eesmith wrote: post #30
ncmncm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there will never be definitive evidence connecting sea level rise to universal flood mythology. It comes down, in the end, to plausibility: people everywhere have always been subject to existential catastrophe, including flood, conflagration, desertification, famine, pandemic, invasion, eviction, genocide, cyclone, earthquake, tsunami, volcanic eruption, bolide strike -- need I go on? Yet, only one of these…

> Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. Most peoples in Africa don't have a flood myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa . Nor is there a Japanese myth. And the Norse flood myth may be from Christian influence. Any theory of a progenitor people must explain why some it persisted in some cultures but not others. > The universal interpretation of the…

> The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth

The null hypothesis is that it is indeterminate whether there is a universal flood myth. Any determinant statement is a non-null hypothesis.

Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#32

Post by eesmith »

dragonwriter wrote: post #31
eesmith wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. Most peoples in Africa don't have a flood myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa . Nor is there a Japanese myth. And the Norse flood myth may be from Christian influence. Any theory of a progenitor people must explain why some it persisted in some cultures but not others. > The universal interpretation of the…

> The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth The null hypothesis is that it is indeterminate whether there is a universal flood myth. Any determinant statement is a non-null hypothesis.

We can compare different flood myths and see there's no universal similarity between them except "there was a flood."

And we can see all sorts of other similarities between different cultures, like the presence of gods and supernatural forces, and not draw the conclusion that gods and supernatural forces existed.

We can look at Australian Aboriginal flood myths, which have the strongest evidence for being the result of sea-level rise from 7,000 years ago, and see that your 'simpler explanation' doesn't fit the data.

And I can see that your statement about the "universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters" is not correct.

Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#33

Post by dragonwriter »

eesmith wrote: post #32
dragonwriter wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The null hypothesis is that there is no universal flood myth The null hypothesis is that it is indeterminate whether there is a universal flood myth. Any determinant statement is a non-null hypothesis.

We can compare different flood myths and see there's no universal similarity between them except "there was a flood." And we can see all sorts of other similarities between different cultures, like the presence of gods and supernatural forces, and not draw the conclusion that gods and supernatural forces existed. We can look at Australian Aboriginal flood myths, which have the strongest evidence for being the result…

I’m not sure who you are responding to, but none of that is germane to my post about the correct use of “null hypothesis“ that it is attached to.

Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#34

Post by ncmncm »

eesmith wrote: post #30
ncmncm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there will never be definitive evidence connecting sea level rise to universal flood mythology. It comes down, in the end, to plausibility: people everywhere have always been subject to existential catastrophe, including flood, conflagration, desertification, famine, pandemic, invasion, eviction, genocide, cyclone, earthquake, tsunami, volcanic eruption, bolide strike -- need I go on? Yet, only one of these…

> Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. Most peoples in Africa don't have a flood myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa . Nor is there a Japanese myth. And the Norse flood myth may be from Christian influence. Any theory of a progenitor people must explain why some it persisted in some cultures but not others. > The universal interpretation of the…

From the linked Wikipedia page: "African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples."

So, false.

And, obviously there would be local myths of the Pleiades. But the Sisters show up on all continents. That is the fact that needs accounting for.

Dragonwriter is correct: neither universal nor regional flooding is the null hypothesis.

Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#35

Post by eesmith »

ncmncm wrote: post #34
eesmith wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, only one of these shows up as formative in all places and nearly all peoples. Most peoples in Africa don't have a flood myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths#Africa . Nor is there a Japanese myth. And the Norse flood myth may be from Christian influence. Any theory of a progenitor people must explain why some it persisted in some cultures but not others. > The universal interpretation of the…

From the linked Wikipedia page: "African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples." So, false. And, obviously there would be local myths of the Pleiades. But the Sisters show up on all continents. That is the fact that needs accounting for. Dragonwriter is correct: neither universal nor regional flooding is the null hypothesis.

I said most cultures in Africa don't have a flood myth, not that no cultures in Africa have a flood myth. The Wikipedia entry you quoted starts "Although the continent has relatively few flood legends".

There are many more than five cultures in Africa. Any suggestion of a universal common source must explain why those other cultures don't have a flood myth. Including Japan.

(Here's a more complete list of flood myths: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html Compare the number in Africa to the number from Central America.)

> But the Sisters show up on all continents

What are the examples for the Americas, Australia, or Polynesia?

And the claim was "universal interpretation of the Pleiades as seven sisters" not "widespread."

Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#36

Post by eesmith »

dragonwriter wrote: post #33
eesmith wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can compare different flood myths and see there's no universal similarity between them except "there was a flood." And we can see all sorts of other similarities between different cultures, like the presence of gods and supernatural forces, and not draw the conclusion that gods and supernatural forces existed. We can look at Australian Aboriginal flood myths, which have the strongest evidence for being the result…

I’m not sure who you are responding to, but none of that is germane to my post about the correct use of “null hypothesis“ that it is attached to.

Then I didn't use the term correctly.

There's still no evidence for the universal progenitor culture experience, while there is counter-evidence, including from Australian oral traditions which may date to the same period.

Re: A tsunami wiped out ancient communities in the Atacama Desert 3,800 years ago

#37

Post by eesmith »

ncmncm wrote: post #29
eesmith wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, while all those global- or continental-scale flooding events did happen, there's only speculation that they are coupled to oral traditions. And stronger speculation that they are linked to more regional floods, eg, from flood-prone Mesopotamia. We can look at the Great Flood of Gun to see how mythology incorporates more localized floods - sea level rise wouldn't cause flooding of the Yellow River and the Ya…

Of course there will never be definitive evidence connecting sea level rise to universal flood mythology. It comes down, in the end, to plausibility: people everywhere have always been subject to existential catastrophe, including flood, conflagration, desertification, famine, pandemic, invasion, eviction, genocide, cyclone, earthquake, tsunami, volcanic eruption, bolide strike -- need I go on? Yet, only one of these…

> The simpler explanation for prominence of flood myths over all others regardless of proximity to recent flooding events is universal experience, in place, continued over millennia

The simpler explanation is that intelligent people saw sea shells on the tops of hills and mountains, and independently concluded that there used to be a great flood which covered the world.

Here are examples from myths which explicitly contain that explanation, copied from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html :

] A flood once covered everything but the summit of Mount Wawom Pebato (seashells on the hills are evidence).

] Proof of their deeds may be seen in seashells embedded in high rocks

] An unusually high tide caused a global flood. Shellfish and such things in the mountains are evidence of it

] The shells and bones of many shellfish, fish, seals, and whales were also left high above sea level, where they may be found today.

] The sky fell and hit the water, causing high breakers that flooded all the land. That is why one can find shells and redwood logs on the highest ridges

] When the flood subsided, it left the lakes Titicaca and Poopo, and it left seashells on the Altiplano at elevations of 3660 m.

] The flood destroyed all animals left on earth, including the Prince of animals [some say it was a mammoth], whose bones can still be found.

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