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Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

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Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#31

Post by sjs »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #27
callahad wrote: post #20

When speaking publicly, RMS is often tactless, offensive, and socially inept. The "emacs virgins" debacle wasn't an issue of "political correctness," nor is the dust up over his comments on Steve Jobs' passing. Granted, there may be a utilitarian point regarding Jobs' work to advance closed platforms, and his death meaning he won't be able to do so any longer, but to spit on his grave? Absolutely uncalled for. We sho…

Oh get over yourself. My condolences if you knew Mr Jobs personally, but really, spat on his grave? Stallman did nothing of the sort. What Stallman did was address the practical change for free software that Steve Jobs removal from leadership at Apple would make. That's it. The manner of removal RMS notes as undeserved.

People keep saying this and I don't really want get into a philosophical debate about it, but Steve Jobs has not been at the helm of Apple since January of this year and officially resigned in August. I'm not saying that RMS is spitting on his grave but if Steve Jobs' "removal" from Apple was really the catalyst in provoking such remarks surely they were due in January or August, no?

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#32

Post by tychobrahe »

> You occasionally drop a few hundred lines of code on github and then think you are a contributor to Free Software?

Yes I do. Github being is so successful these days is proof that FOSS matters. FOSS is not only about kernels, compilers and emacs. Those things were just the start.

Being able to use a fully open stack from the bootloader to the javascript library and be as productive as with closed platforms means a lot, and it owes not only to FSF's activism, but also to the software community.

Rails wasn't born out of the desire of spreading ~free software~ ideals. It was born out of the desire of changing the world of web development. And why is it open source, then? Because it was the best option, and still is. A community was born around it and the results are as good (or better) than anything a company could make just by hiring.

Today, with things like GitHub, the barriers to free software are pretty much gone. Everyone can contribute. This is infinitely better than Stallman's 'cathedral'. I can not only look at, thinker and modify somebody else's code: I can effectively give back to the creators in a matter of seconds, and then, suddenly, I become one of the creators myself.

Seriously, your post full of fallacies.

Everyone is free to criticize Stallman on this point. Don't try to invalidate their criticism just because they haven't written a GCC or an Emacs.

So, yes, I am part of free software, but I don't want anything to do with FSF or Stallman. I want to win this open vs closed fight by fighting with my code. Not by pissing on someone's grave.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#33

Post by skrebbel »

vacri wrote: post #11
skrebbel wrote: post #7

The problem with hardcore ideologists is that they always end up bickering about details with other hardcore ideologists. This is fine, and it's their right to do so, but from a distance it will make the movement they all represent together look like a bunch of fighting children. Any activist group that has ever made a difference in history has had leaders who were able to accept their minor differences and fight tog…

This man might have been a great programmer, but as an activist, he's a joke. Activists raise consciouness of an issue, and he seems to be doing that quite fine - who else is fighting the same fight with the effectiveness he is? If he weren't around... where are the public figures making his argument and getting press inches? Also, minor differences he's capable of - he's apparently given up on the hurd kernel due to…

> Activists raise consciouness of an issue, and he seems to be doing that quite fine

Are you sure? Afaik, he's only reaching us, insiders. If you want to convince a non-nerd about using free software, would you dare using material that RMS produced? Would you show them a recording of him speaking?

> Also, minor differences he's capable of - he's apparently given up on the hurd kernel due to the linux kernel being top dog, despite not fully approving of it.

That's super fucking nobody-cares-about-that-shit minor. Really. Which kernel you use is not what free software is about.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#34

Post by vacri »

skrebbel wrote: post #33
vacri wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This man might have been a great programmer, but as an activist, he's a joke. Activists raise consciouness of an issue, and he seems to be doing that quite fine - who else is fighting the same fight with the effectiveness he is? If he weren't around... where are the public figures making his argument and getting press inches? Also, minor differences he's capable of - he's apparently given up on the hurd kernel due to…

> Activists raise consciouness of an issue, and he seems to be doing that quite fine Are you sure? Afaik, he's only reaching us, insiders. If you want to convince a non-nerd about using free software, would you dare using material that RMS produced? Would you show them a recording of him speaking? > Also, minor differences he's capable of - he's apparently given up on the hurd kernel due to the linux kernel being top…

If you read the dead comment below, you'll see he's very popular in the developing word. As for the developed world, what tech activists get any more traction with the non-nerds? It's not just a matter of saying 'here, my friend, watch this' as that doesn't really happen, it's a matter of the message being raised and pursued. No-one is going to make a non-nerd sit through a lecture on software patents, no matter who does the speaking. But guys like RMS keep us aware that there is an issue.

Regarding the dead comment itself, I have absolutely no idea why the comment below is dead - it simply says he's popular, then uses Jobs' own words about misfits and troublemakers to defend the man. Apparently HN has interpreted this as "misfits and troublemakers you like", which kinda runs counter to the context of the paragraph. RMS fits almost everything in the comment.

The fact that that comment is dead - polite, informative, insightful - is just further evidence that the moderation system on HN needs an overhaul.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#35

Post by smoyer »

warp wrote: post #26
smoyer wrote: post #9

I've never advocated finding another leader of the FSF ... But I am afraid that it will become completely irrelevant if it's viewed as an extremist organization. I think the real danger is that it's membership will decide not to be associated with it and it's funding will dry up. RMS hasn't really said where his income comes from, but I'm assuming he's paid as the FSF's leader. Assuming that RMS' marketable skills re…

According to [1], his income is from speeches. The Form990 filed by the FSF [2] (If I understand it correctly) confirms he does not get any salary from the FSF. 1) http://blog.mypapit.net/2005/06/richard-stallman-admits-his-... 2) http://tfcny.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/042/042888848/042...

I stand corrected ... though alienating his followers would be even more problematic then.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#36

Post by emilsedgh »

tychobrahe wrote: post #32

> You occasionally drop a few hundred lines of code on github and then think you are a contributor to Free Software? Yes I do. Github being is so successful these days is proof that FOSS matters. FOSS is not only about kernels, compilers and emacs. Those things were just the start. Being able to use a fully open stack from the bootloader to the javascript library and be as productive as with closed platforms means a…

No, Im not saying your code is worthless. Im saying your reasons for contributing and dropping the code wasnt and isnt 'Free Software'. As you mentioned, its 'Open vs. Closed'.

Also, rms did not piss on his grave. He respectfully said that he's happy that Steve Jobs couldnt affect the computer world anymore.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#37

Post by meric »

cschwarm wrote: post #28
meric wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many vegetarians believe eating meat is evil. They tell me "you should not eat meat, it is evil". I agree with them, and yet I eat meat, especially when my mother / girlfriend cooks it for me. Are vegetarians going to moral-judge me? Some of them might; Others would just see me as "strong" enough to resist meat. With most politicians, the more you listen to them the more inconsistencies you will find. rms, however, i…

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to tell me. I didn't say that Stallman has no principles, or that he is inconsistent. For me, there's just one main question: Is his conclusion -- that all software should be free software -- rational? To be rational, a conclusion should follow logically from true premises and at least one fundamental moral principle. It's been a while since I studied Stallman's writings, but bac…

You trotted out his point of view: "One should not use proprietary software! It's evil, according to Stallman.", sounding like it is because of his moral judgement that you do not support him.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#38

Post by Confusion »

skrebbel wrote: post #33
vacri wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This man might have been a great programmer, but as an activist, he's a joke. Activists raise consciouness of an issue, and he seems to be doing that quite fine - who else is fighting the same fight with the effectiveness he is? If he weren't around... where are the public figures making his argument and getting press inches? Also, minor differences he's capable of - he's apparently given up on the hurd kernel due to…

> Activists raise consciouness of an issue, and he seems to be doing that quite fine Are you sure? Afaik, he's only reaching us, insiders. If you want to convince a non-nerd about using free software, would you dare using material that RMS produced? Would you show them a recording of him speaking? > Also, minor differences he's capable of - he's apparently given up on the hurd kernel due to the linux kernel being top…

You are right he only reaches insiders, but I don't think that is a problem: you also need the hardcore activists that preach to the other activists, to keep them straight on target. Outside of people like RMS and foundations like Debian, 'free' has become polluted in all kinds of ways. At some poiny, RMS no longer needed to evangelize 'free software', as plenty of others are doing that already. Instead, watches the watchers. And they watch him and grumble, rightfully and wrongfully.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#39

Post by cschwarm »

meric wrote: post #37
cschwarm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to tell me. I didn't say that Stallman has no principles, or that he is inconsistent. For me, there's just one main question: Is his conclusion -- that all software should be free software -- rational? To be rational, a conclusion should follow logically from true premises and at least one fundamental moral principle. It's been a while since I studied Stallman's writings, but bac…

You trotted out his point of view: "One should not use proprietary software! It's evil, according to Stallman.", sounding like it is because of his moral judgement that you do not support him.

I think, all ideas should be given due consideration. Those that turn out to be wrong should be dismissed. The idea of the Free Software movement appears to be a wrong idea, and should be dismissed. The idea of the Open Source movement ('Some software should be free'), though, seems to be a right idea.

Re: Tell HN: Dear 'open source' people (on defending rms)

#40

Post by mark_l_watson »

In my own interactions with RMS he has not been totally nice (he once asked me about releasing one of my old Springer-Verlag Lisp books under the FSF doc license, I did not have the original files, I didn't want to type in the book myself, and he seemed testy) but I feel like defending him.

RMS has done a lot in the past to make my life as a developer much better. Some irony, typing this on my MacBook: I think that we are going to lose a lot of freedoms in the future: controlled computer hardware, loss of open media, loss of open internet, ...., the list goes on...

Logically, we should all be throwing our support behing FSF, EFF, some of the few rational political movements supporting personal freedom, etc. because once the tipping point is reached where we lose freedoms, it is likely we will not get them back.

I am an older hacker (60) and you may disagree with me and my world view, but just take a look at history to see cases when people did not stand up for their rights and lost them.

So, a tip of the hat to RMS, and thanks to him.

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