Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#31

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #18

giantg2 wrote: post #10

Is this really new? It seems subgroups of either side have selectively supported free speech based on whether they agree with the message.

It is new. Historically, the left aggressively defended its opponent’s right to freedom of speech and assembly on the understanding that legalized limits on free speech will ultimately be used against the left more than it will be used against the right. An often cited American example is the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members to speak freely and assemble. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/u…

The ACLU is only one segment, just as there are various segments in the other side. There are historical examples of liberals supporting restrictions on free speech going back decades (again, only some segments). For example, forced public sector union dues, various speakers being booed or intimidated to not speak, even school curriculum/speech (firearm education and images). Then there are segments that don't support those groups being able to speak, such as the SPLC.

So I don't really see much difference from historical examples. There are subgroups in both sides that may take opposing stances. To be fair, the historical versions of any party no longer exist. They evolve, that's what they do.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#32

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

seba_dos1 wrote: post #28

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is new. Historically, the left aggressively defended its opponent’s right to freedom of speech and assembly on the understanding that legalized limits on free speech will ultimately be used against the left more than it will be used against the right. An often cited American example is the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members to speak freely and assemble. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/u…

> The real story is that the historical left no longer exists. Is there any left left in the US? From an outsider perspective, the US political scene seems to consist of right and far-right.

What would you consider left?

I don't follow a lot of the smaller proposals, but I believe some of the newer members have some "left" proposals. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez might be one to google.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#33

Post by PaulHoule » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #21

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the legal restrictions against critical race theory are very hypocritical

It's misguided, since it's not really being taught to begin with. But both sides support restrictions on curriculum, and speech in schools. So I guess we're all just hypocrites.

There is a finite amount of time in the school day so adding something to the curriculum means something gets removed somewhere else.

(Fundamentally there is the problem of "freedom from" and "freedom to". If the people get spammed with the equivalent of bread and circuses it doesn't matter at all that a few people can speak to the wind about important things.)

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#34

Post by ContrarianBrit » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

seba_dos1 wrote: post #28

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is new. Historically, the left aggressively defended its opponent’s right to freedom of speech and assembly on the understanding that legalized limits on free speech will ultimately be used against the left more than it will be used against the right. An often cited American example is the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members to speak freely and assemble. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/u…

> The real story is that the historical left no longer exists. Is there any left left in the US? From an outsider perspective, the US political scene seems to consist of right and far-right.

I'm not from the US, but I would consider Biden to be a traditional left-liberal. Unfortunately, moderates like Biden seem terrified of radical progressives!

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#35

Post by Ekaros » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #8

PaulHoule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservatives have embraced a campaign against "cancel culture" because it's one of the few things they offer that sells. However they are hot to ban "critical race theory" even though they struggle to define it.

Yes, the legal restrictions against critical race theory are very hypocritical

So should other things people in general disagree with be allowed in schools? Let's say advocacy for racism, discrimination and genocide? After all those should be free under free speech.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#36

Post by seba_dos1 » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:08 PM UTC

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #34

seba_dos1 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real story is that the historical left no longer exists. Is there any left left in the US? From an outsider perspective, the US political scene seems to consist of right and far-right.

I'm not from the US, but I would consider Biden to be a traditional left-liberal. Unfortunately, moderates like Biden seem terrified of radical progressives!

To be fair, I could consider Sanders as a traditional left-liberal.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#37

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:09 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #26

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is new. Historically, the left aggressively defended its opponent’s right to freedom of speech and assembly on the understanding that legalized limits on free speech will ultimately be used against the left more than it will be used against the right. An often cited American example is the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members to speak freely and assemble. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/u…

Cancel culture isn't a pursuit of legalized limits on free speech, it's an expression of free speech. Only conservatives are currently pursuing anything of the sort, by attempting to regulate social media, banning critical race theory, the discussion of gender identity and sexuality, etc.

"Only"

Are they also banning religion/prayer in schools, or firearm education/imagery, etc? After Trump won, I seem to remember a lot of people supporting the idea of managing misinformation on social media. My point is that all sides do it.

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#38

Post by sneak » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #14

sneak wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancel culture itself, paradoxically, being exercise of free expression (vocal disapproval of socially repugnant things), suggests that perhaps claiming persecution is an authoritarian, anti-free-speech position. Ultimately most people are anti-free expression of some kind. Very few are actually ideologically opposed to censorship (public or private) of things they find unconscionable.

Free-expression cultism expands like a gas. It's one thing to have a constitutional amendment that forbids jailing somebody because the government doesn't like what they say. It's another thing to say that somebody has to provide you with a free printing press, that people have to read it, that communities can't protect themselves from harmful communications, etc. Where does it stop? Several times a week I flag a dis…

I think it is now safe to assume knowledge of xkcd 1357 at this point.

Private censorship is still censorship and it is still powerful, otherwise Google and Facebook wouldn't wield it as often as they do (often at the explicit legal behest of the states in which they operate).

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#39

Post by giantg2 » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

ContrarianBrit wrote: post #22

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is new. Historically, the left aggressively defended its opponent’s right to freedom of speech and assembly on the understanding that legalized limits on free speech will ultimately be used against the left more than it will be used against the right. An often cited American example is the ACLU defending the rights of Nazis and Ku Klux Klan members to speak freely and assemble. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/u…

The balance of power has now changed. Liberal positions are favoured by majorities; conservative positions are favoured by minorities.

Do you mean favored by minorities, or that the conservative position is the minority?

Re: Why conservatives won't save freedom of speech

#40

Post by smitty1e » Sun, Mar 27, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

> Psychological factors also underpin attitudes towards freedom of speech. Liberals tend to be more creative and open to new experiences, these attitudes underpinning traditional liberal attitudes towards freedom of speech. If one embraces challenges, diverse viewpoints tend to be less threatening. Conservatives are different, tending to be more fearful; most studies find an association between conservatism and anxieties such as the fear of death. This is unfavourable to freedom of speech; the principle thrives when attitudes are open.

What a simplistic view. Conservatives tend to be less interested in the novel follies of the day.

Also, conservatives don't think one need be a credentialed Biologist to know to which of the two actually existing genders one was born and shall remain until death, irrespective of the latest fashionable thought.