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The Shaming-Industrial Complex

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Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#31

Post by KennyBlanken »

tehwebguy wrote: post #26
lazyeye wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

Political party membership is not a protected class. Ditto for "illness" (I think you meant 'disablity'?)

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#32

Post by visarga »

tehwebguy wrote: post #26
lazyeye wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#33

Post by sacrosancty »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #21
hansworst wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although at least on platforms like Reddit (and I suppose the internet as a whole) it’s possible to create your own echo chamber where your opinion that was shunned elsewhere is allowed to exist and can gather a following. The echo chamber effect of these platforms is often called out as a bad thing, but in my opinion it may also be useful as a way of nurturing ideas that would’ve otherwise been squashed early becaus…

>Although at least on platforms like Reddit (and I suppose the internet as a whole) it’s possible to create your own echo chamber where your opinion that was shunned elsewhere is allowed to exist and can gather a following. AKA the Toaster Fucker Problem! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25667362

Is that really a problem? Even if toaster fucker is a euphemism for gay? Why shouldn't everyone find like-minded people to feel non-isolated with?

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#34

Post by visarga »

nathias wrote: post #25

Shame is internal, so when people shame others they are recognizing and alarming others about something the shamed also knows and agrees with, the result is the shamed stops the bad action and societal harmony is reestablished. But with journalism for clicks, shaming is used to "try" to shame people who obviously don't share their values, so it has the opposite effect. When a group of people who think wrong is right…

Guilt is internal, based on moral thinking. Shame is external, based on society. Cultures tend towards shame (mostly in Asia), guilt (mostly in the Christianity) or fear (authoritarian regimes).

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#36

Post by sacrosancty »

tehwebguy wrote: post #26
lazyeye wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#37

Post by pjc50 »

roenxi wrote: post #6
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…

> However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society There is a pretty good argument that it is maladaptive in any community bigger than a few hundred people. The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation or provide effective ways to fight back against a shaming. Good political decisions c…

> The most successful political innovations - legislative bodies & courts - have both taken strong measures to make it difficult to shame people into cooperation

?!? Legislative bodies used to rely on shame (the opposite of honor) as a means of enforcing unwritten rules. It used to be possible to shame politicians into resigning when they'd crossed a line.

“Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?” -- Joe Welch cancels Joe McCarthy

Remember that Nixon resigned. He wasn't impeached out of office for his crimes, he was shamed into resigning when they came to light.

> provide effective ways to fight back against a shaming

Please list some court sanctioned ways to fight back against shaming and how these are not an infringement of free speech.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#38

Post by AndyMcConachie »

tgv wrote: post #9

- So, what would be the opening paragraph? - I thought we'd recall some unsavoury history and reshame that person, but clouding our own superiority complex with philosophical sounding objectivity. - Yeah, that'll keep 'm hooked.

The New Yorker is itself part of this Complex the author talks about yet attempts to speak objectively about this Industrial Shaming Complex. It belies a complete lack of recognition that outlets like The New Yorker may be part of the phenomenom being discussed. The New Yorker isn't some neighborhood zine, it's a prime mover in American highbrow discourse.

I have the same problem with any articles about 'The Media' written in a popular medium. At least recognize the difficulty of objectivity and your role in the subject being discussed.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#39

Post by thematrixturtle »

forum_ghost wrote: post #16
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this always happens. There is no culture which doesn't have a strong element of self-censorship for at least some of its members. But equally some groups/individuals will get the benefit of the doubt, while others will be aggressively bullied and scapegoated. And some groups/individuals will aggressively claim victimhood and martyrdom while actually being comparatively privileged. The question is more the extent…

What are the examples of these shameless cultures? I'd like to join them.

In anthropology, there's a concept of a guilt-shame spectrum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fe...

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#40

Post by bryanrasmussen »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #29
tetromino_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional American culture (as compared to traditional Japanese culture, for example). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fe...

[flagged]

I mean sorry but the Japanese have a pretty strong shaming culture according to most of the world, that the things you think they should be ashamed of are not those they are shamed by does not prove any different.
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