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Clojure 1.11 is now available

clojure.org

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Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#31

Post by phtrivier »

phtrivier wrote: post #28
buzzwords wrote: post #8

I do wonder what has to happen for greater adoption of Clojure.

- ease the onboarding. Every few months I try to give clojure another shot, and every few months _some_ part of the setup has changed and / or is broken. - compile to small binaries that run fast. I get what the langage gets from the JVM, but those 5,10 seconds I get before _anything_ runs, even after I had everything compiled ? - show me an example of how having 'spec' is going to help me refactor the code that I go…

Also, about the 'name' -> 'names' thing ; I get that maybe the idea should be that I should keep the 'name' property around and just accrete the 'names' thing, and API should be immutable and all, but, just, 'No'.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#32

Post by zitterbewegung »

Decabytes wrote: post #2

Glad to see Clojure continuing to improve. Racket borrows a lot from Clojure^1,2,3 so its success fuels ours as well. With the other post on here about Java 18 including Pattern Matching, I'm glad that good ideas continue to cross pollinate between different languages. Programming is still a young field compared to other professions, and there is still a lot of good things left to discover! 1. https://docs.racket-lan…

A lot of clojure has been borrowing from main stream programming languages that lisp users don’t think of using at all which is great.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#33

Post by iLemming »

mixedCase wrote: post #29
iLemming wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was working for a fintech company, we built a suite of specs for a ledger. Based on those specs, we could generate data. And it wasn't just some set of key/value pairs with completely randomized numbers. It would generate "a proper" ledger, where every number in a transaction depends on other transactions. We used that generated data to render UI locally and on the non-prod environments. Using the same specs w…

I'm glad you found great uses for clojure.spec. We need more tools like it. If you ever find yourself writing TypeScript I'd recommend you try io-ts, which fullfills the same role as clojure.spec but is also able to auto-generate types from the runtime codecs, which you can then use in your functions to make sure they are only used with data that passed decoding. Not having to rely on discipline or "pinky promising"…

> either developer productivity or the robustness of the software falls off a cliff.

So, I once worked on a project for the retail industry. And the requirement changes weren't just crazy, sometimes they felt legit grotesque. Like for example: "hey guys, we have a new program - everyone in Nebraska and Ohio gets 20%, except these particular vendors. The discount should work only for their customers if they are buying these specific items. We're going to need to unveil this in four days. Get to work." And then on the day of the release: "oh, remember about specific items? They want to expand it to a specific category of items. Can you make a quick change?" An hour later: "actually, we need to keep both, marketing thinks we need to A/B test this..."

And it was like that all the time. We had numerous discussions within the team, each of us had rich experience working with multiple other languages before. I'm not gonna lie - a few times we've said: "if we had a static type system...", but in the end, we all agreed - it would've been challenging to maintain the system the way we did if we had to use something else than Clojure.

In any case, all this remains a personal opinion. Yes, Clojure isn't perfect, but right now, it's quite suitable for my needs.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#34

Post by nanomonkey »

phtrivier wrote: post #28
buzzwords wrote: post #8

I do wonder what has to happen for greater adoption of Clojure.

- ease the onboarding. Every few months I try to give clojure another shot, and every few months _some_ part of the setup has changed and / or is broken. - compile to small binaries that run fast. I get what the langage gets from the JVM, but those 5,10 seconds I get before _anything_ runs, even after I had everything compiled ? - show me an example of how having 'spec' is going to help me refactor the code that I go…

GraalVM has made creating Clojure binaries with quick launch times much more possible. I suggest checking out babashka (Closure bash scripting) as an example and as a means.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#35

Post by lukashrb »

mixedCase wrote: post #30
iLemming wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, respectfully (while not disagreeing with you), I have to say that you seem to live in some idealistic utopia of software crafting. Between the crazy world of gazillion lines of shitty Python or Javascript, and some incredible proof assistants, I think Clojure finds itself in a quite pragmatic, practical, and cozy niche. Notably, Clojure "speaks money". Money necessitates reliability and requires defect-free sof…

I believe fintech is mostly a functional hub. There's an above average amount of Haskell, F#, and Scala in it. Most of the Clojure influence I believe comes from Nubank initially starting out as a Clojure shop IIRC. Unfortunately I also happen to not get paid to play around with languages, although I'm open to such a position if you know of any available one. I get paid to write robust software and to work with engin…

> I get paid to deal with requirements that change every bloody week because we have quick customer feedback

In my experience this is something where clojure is exceptionally good at.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#36

Post by iLemming »

mixedCase wrote: post #30
iLemming wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, respectfully (while not disagreeing with you), I have to say that you seem to live in some idealistic utopia of software crafting. Between the crazy world of gazillion lines of shitty Python or Javascript, and some incredible proof assistants, I think Clojure finds itself in a quite pragmatic, practical, and cozy niche. Notably, Clojure "speaks money". Money necessitates reliability and requires defect-free sof…

I believe fintech is mostly a functional hub. There's an above average amount of Haskell, F#, and Scala in it. Most of the Clojure influence I believe comes from Nubank initially starting out as a Clojure shop IIRC. Unfortunately I also happen to not get paid to play around with languages, although I'm open to such a position if you know of any available one. I get paid to write robust software and to work with engin…

>I get paid to write robust software and to work with engineers that don't always have 10+ years of experience. ... > I've dealt with those cases across many languages across the years

I'm not trying to denigrate your experience, and I'm not pretending that we work in different industries and deal with very dissimilar problems. But if anything I learned from the years of writing software - there are no silver bullets. Every single tool has cons and pros. You can't just look at any instrument, framework, library, language through a tiny keyhole and make assumptions. And I'm not saying you have. Perhaps you have rich experience using Clojure that led you to the conclusions you made. From my perspective - I have the opposite of that. And again, it's not because I have not seen what you have. Clojure, in my opinion, compensates for the lack of static typing with a plethora of other features. Features that many other languages can't offer but are essential for me.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#37

Post by iLemming »

lukashrb wrote: post #35
mixedCase wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe fintech is mostly a functional hub. There's an above average amount of Haskell, F#, and Scala in it. Most of the Clojure influence I believe comes from Nubank initially starting out as a Clojure shop IIRC. Unfortunately I also happen to not get paid to play around with languages, although I'm open to such a position if you know of any available one. I get paid to write robust software and to work with engin…

> I get paid to deal with requirements that change every bloody week because we have quick customer feedback In my experience this is something where clojure is exceptionally good at.

Yep, just like I said in the adjacent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30771964

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#38

Post by [deleted] »

phtrivier wrote: post #31
phtrivier wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- ease the onboarding. Every few months I try to give clojure another shot, and every few months _some_ part of the setup has changed and / or is broken. - compile to small binaries that run fast. I get what the langage gets from the JVM, but those 5,10 seconds I get before _anything_ runs, even after I had everything compiled ? - show me an example of how having 'spec' is going to help me refactor the code that I go…

Also, about the 'name' -> 'names' thing ; I get that maybe the idea should be that I should keep the 'name' property around and just accrete the 'names' thing, and API should be immutable and all, but, just, 'No'.

[deleted]

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#39

Post by iLemming »

mswift42 wrote: post #18
fogus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The contributor list is append-only. :)

The contributor list is expanding :)

The contributor list ain't list at all. It's an immutable collection.

I am so happy to see that not one but a couple of those names are my colleagues. They send patches to clojure.core. I send comments to HN :). I'm proud of them, I hope they proud of me too.

Re: Clojure 1.11 is now available

#40

Post by amelius »

nanomonkey wrote: post #34
phtrivier wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- ease the onboarding. Every few months I try to give clojure another shot, and every few months _some_ part of the setup has changed and / or is broken. - compile to small binaries that run fast. I get what the langage gets from the JVM, but those 5,10 seconds I get before _anything_ runs, even after I had everything compiled ? - show me an example of how having 'spec' is going to help me refactor the code that I go…

GraalVM has made creating Clojure binaries with quick launch times much more possible. I suggest checking out babashka (Closure bash scripting) as an example and as a means.

Does that also work on embedded platforms with limited resources?
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