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A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

thecritic.co.uk

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Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#31

Post by pumpkinhead »

qiskit wrote: post #24
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it. The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century. And the italian renaissance had more to do with direct trade opening up between europe and china…

"Interesting tidbit, the mongol empire had a significant but indirect part in the "discovery" of the americas by columbus."

So did the Ottomans. Their monopoly of the eastern routes caused the Western kingdoms to go the other direction.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#32

Post by bwanab »

wrp wrote: post #28
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

>...the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire The Byzantine empire was in decline for several centuries, starting with the Islamic expansion. By the time Constantinople fell to the Turks, it had been reduced to a city-state.

That isn’t really accurate. The Roman Empire of the several centuries after the Arab conquests had its down period in the 800s, but came back strongly for several centuries from 900 through 1200 during which time they were the most powerful of all the states of Europe and Western Asia.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#33

Post by bwanab »

yawgmoth wrote: post #23
delsarto wrote: post #20

If, like me, your knowledge of Constantinople is limited to the They Might Be Giants song, an excellent light-ish read (as much as 100s of years of Byzantine, as in the ridiculously complex, history can be) is Ghost Empire by Richard Fidler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Empire_(book)

The History of Byzantium podcast is both accessible and well done- https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/

Highly recommended.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#34

Post by KoftaBob »

dan-robertson wrote: post #10
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

One thing to note is that the Greek works likely could not have survived medieval Europe if they had left Constantinople a lot earlier. There were two great advantages to renaissance scholars: 1. The works were still in their original Greek (rather than translations into Latin done long ago, or the translations from Greek to Arabic (and then to Latin) that came in through moorish Spain). 2. Religious attitudes allowe…

> if a book disagreed with the bible it was heresy and should be destroyed, and if it agreed with the bible it was unnecessary and could be destroyed.

Not sure where you're getting this from, but it's suspiciously similar to this commentary by Islamic Caliph Omar, where he was talking about the books in the Library of Alexandria.

"Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. Several later Arabic sources describe the library's destruction by the order of Caliph Omar.[94][95] Bar-Hebraeus, writing in the thirteenth century, quotes Omar as saying to Yaḥyā al-Naḥwī: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#35

Post by bedobi »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

It's kind of a fantasy but I like to think Rome never truly disappeared. (and I don't mean that necessarily in an good or nostalgic way) A lot of what happens in Brazil, the US etc today is as if lifted straight out of the late republic. What's going on in Ukraine too is also history repeating itself. The examples are countless. Many of us, especially on a western forum like this, in many ways are Romans.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#36

Post by q1w2 »

qiskit wrote: post #24
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it. The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century. And the italian renaissance had more to do with direct trade opening up between europe and china…

If you look at a changing map of the Eastern Roman Empire over time, like the Western Roman Empire, it "collapsed" well before it fell.

Many educated elites from Rome moved to Constantinople a century before Rome fell. ...and similarly, the most educated elites left Constantinople for northern Italy (and Russia!) before the Ottomans smashed down the walls over the preceding century.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#37

Post by bobthechef »

dan-robertson wrote: post #10
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

One thing to note is that the Greek works likely could not have survived medieval Europe if they had left Constantinople a lot earlier. There were two great advantages to renaissance scholars: 1. The works were still in their original Greek (rather than translations into Latin done long ago, or the translations from Greek to Arabic (and then to Latin) that came in through moorish Spain). 2. Religious attitudes allowe…

No post body was provided.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#38

Post by AmericanChopper »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

The Holy Roman Empire is as much “The Roman Empire” as the 1400s Byzantine Empire was. So depending on where you choose to draw your historical boundaries, The Roman Empire might still be with us today. Hitler was very explicitly trying to restore the empire that Napoleon had crushed. He obviously failed to achieve that, but very shortly after his failed attempt Europe was united under a single governing entity with Germany arguably having the strongest influence over it.

Re: A new history of Byzantium reveals the inner workings of a late antique empire

#40

Post by omazurov »

qiskit wrote: post #24
dr_dshiv wrote: post #6

Isn’t it wild that the Roman Empire lasted until the 1400s, only to finally fall to the Ottoman Empire? But as the Empire fell, a large set of manuscripts were brought by the great Plethon to Cosimo d’Medici. Marsilio Ficino’s translation of Greek classics into Latin—like the complete works of Plato and the Hermetica—helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it. The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century. And the italian renaissance had more to do with direct trade opening up between europe and china…

>> helped kindle the European Renaissance as we know it.

> The italian renaissance started in the 14th century for sure and maybe even in 13th century depending on who you ask. Though the exact date can be disputed, nobody disputes the fact that it started long before the fall of the byzantine empire in the mid 15th century.

The early "Renaissance" was Latin, the Renaissance proper was Greek. That's all you need to know to figure out when (1397+), where (Florence+), and how it started. The seed is more important than the soil.

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