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How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

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31–40 of 112 posts

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#31
post #13

It seems like every major infrastructure folly, at its heart, simplifies to "Someone made their career espousing a certain worldview, and when facts changed in future decades, were unwilling or unable to change their now-famous beliefs." In this case, car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? But then became false as the growth rate of cars outscaled roads.

> the growth rate of cars outscaled roads

That's underselling it a bit. The growth rate of roads was deliberately stalled in the 70s. We just elected not to build new infrastructure in most places, and coast with what we had. There are some exceptions, but they are just that -- exceptions.

Meanwhile, it seems that the same people who didn't want to build any more road infrastructure also didn't want to build mass transit rail infrastructure either. And so here we are.

Now, it's probably too late without a major cultural shift and realignment of priorities and sensitivities. We give everyone a seat at the table and every last one of them has veto power. So ... nothing happens. Without unanimous consensus.

Hell, Oregon & Washington spent $175 million just to plan out a new bridge, and over $100 million of that was just pretty pictures. In the end, too many vetoes, too much fighting, we gave up. Eventually we will try again but maybe it will take the existing I-5 bridge dropping into the river from old age before agreement can be reached.

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#32
post #13

It seems like every major infrastructure folly, at its heart, simplifies to "Someone made their career espousing a certain worldview, and when facts changed in future decades, were unwilling or unable to change their now-famous beliefs." In this case, car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? But then became false as the growth rate of cars outscaled roads.

> the growth rate of cars outscaled roads That's underselling it a bit. The growth rate of roads was deliberately stalled in the 70s. We just elected not to build new infrastructure in most places, and coast with what we had. There are some exceptions, but they are just that -- exceptions. Meanwhile, it seems that the same people who didn't want to build any more road infrastructure also didn't want to build mass tra…

Cost disease. Other countries have been completing public works projects of similar-or-larger scope for dramatically less than it costs here. How can anyone rationally accept $175 MILLION (pinky finger) for bridge planning?

There are two many people sticking their hands out in American projects.

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#33
post #30

Mildly interesting; the main bridge in Lisbon, Portugal (Ponte de 25 abril) was built by the same company as the golden gate bridge and looks almost identical. It had a railway added in 1999 underneath.

> the main bridge in Lisbon, Portugal (Ponte de 25 abril) was built by the same company as the golden gate bridge I don't think this is true, according to Wikipedia, the Golden Gate Bridge was build by McClintic-Marshall, and the Ponte de 25 abril by the American Bridge Company [0]. You might be confusing this with the Bay Bridge [1], which was build by the same company and also had rail service until 1963. [0] https…

It is especially confusing to visitors from San Francisco, because the bridge has an architectural design like the Bay Bridge, but is painted orange like the Golden Gate Bridge!

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#34
post #13

It seems like every major infrastructure folly, at its heart, simplifies to "Someone made their career espousing a certain worldview, and when facts changed in future decades, were unwilling or unable to change their now-famous beliefs." In this case, car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? But then became false as the growth rate of cars outscaled roads.

> car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? What does “true and progressive” mean? The freeway expansions of the mid 20th century cutting through city centers were disastrous all over the USA, right from the start. Horrible for urban society, economy, equity, ... Thankfully San Francisco was never turned into https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~2... Great for…

The urban sprawl created by the automobile was not a bad thing in its time. It democratized living. No longer were workers beholdant to landlords owning buildings next to the factory. Now everyone could live basically wherever they wanted. A new job no longer meant moving house and home across the city. Consumers had a far wider choice in where they purchased goods. And when they spotted a good deal they were not limited to what they could carry. In their day, these were very progressive changes.

The entertainment industry would be far different if not for automobiles. Look at woodstock. Such iconic american activities and mass gatherings would not have been possible without widespread cheap personal transportation.

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#35
post #13

It seems like every major infrastructure folly, at its heart, simplifies to "Someone made their career espousing a certain worldview, and when facts changed in future decades, were unwilling or unable to change their now-famous beliefs." In this case, car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? But then became false as the growth rate of cars outscaled roads.

> car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? What does “true and progressive” mean? The freeway expansions of the mid 20th century cutting through city centers were disastrous all over the USA, right from the start. Horrible for urban society, economy, equity, ... Thankfully San Francisco was never turned into https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~2... Great for…

> Thankfully San Francisco was never turned into https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~2...

I'm definately not one for more highways, but this map doesn't look _that_ different from SF today?

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#36

I learned recently, there used to be trains on the Bay Bridge! https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/50-years-since-trains-cr... I'm surprised there's not an easy rule of thumb: if a road has over two lanes in each direction, the route is busy enough to sustain trains/light rail.

> if a road has over two lanes in each direction, the route is busy enough to sustain trains/light rail.

That's necessary, but not sufficient. Rail requires enough commonality or at least linearity of both source and destination. If it's an octopus on either end of said road, rail doesn't work.

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? What does “true and progressive” mean? The freeway expansions of the mid 20th century cutting through city centers were disastrous all over the USA, right from the start. Horrible for urban society, economy, equity, ... Thankfully San Francisco was never turned into https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~2... Great for…

I think it's fair to say mass adoption of automobiles was viewed progressively in that time period. Certainly not by all, but by many. It was a new disruptive technology that allowed you to move people and things in a cost efficient way that previously wasn't possible. When your only option for public transit required an upfront investment in fixed rail lines, and then a cheap comfortable bus with rubber wheels and a…

They're trying to rip out rail lines right now in Santa Cruz

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#38
post #21
post #13

It seems like every major infrastructure folly, at its heart, simplifies to "Someone made their career espousing a certain worldview, and when facts changed in future decades, were unwilling or unable to change their now-famous beliefs." In this case, car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? But then became false as the growth rate of cars outscaled roads.

When are we going to start treating failure to change your mind as the moral failing that it is?

It's absolutely a moral failing, but an understandable one.

If you spend 10+ years as a proponent of something, become famous and well-compensated for your expertise in it, and are surrounded by colleagues and employees who also believe in it... it's very hard to say "We've become wrong. Let's do things differently."

It's the personal version of successful companies failing to adapt to innovation in their market.

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#39
post #13

It seems like every major infrastructure folly, at its heart, simplifies to "Someone made their career espousing a certain worldview, and when facts changed in future decades, were unwilling or unable to change their now-famous beliefs." In this case, car > rail. Which was true and progressive, for a period! Say, 1950 to 1970? But then became false as the growth rate of cars outscaled roads.

> the growth rate of cars outscaled roads That's underselling it a bit. The growth rate of roads was deliberately stalled in the 70s. We just elected not to build new infrastructure in most places, and coast with what we had. There are some exceptions, but they are just that -- exceptions. Meanwhile, it seems that the same people who didn't want to build any more road infrastructure also didn't want to build mass tra…

> We just elected not to build new infrastructure in most places, and coast with what we had.

If you're talking about facilitating more automobiles, I am not sure what you are going to be able to do in the Bay Area, L.A., etc.

I don't think it's for lack of trying or resources, roads simply don't scale. Bad weather, one bad accident on the freeway, rush "hour" (ha ha).

Re: How BART on the Golden Gate Bridge died: A new history

#40
post #24
post #8

"The story goes: Marin County, worried about cost of the extension and engineering concerns of running BART on the Golden Gate Bridge, ultimately backed out of the BART District. Fin." I want to push back on this slightly ... The received wisdom - repeated ad infinitum - among bay area progressives is that Marin County rejected BART based on racist, exclusionary, NIMBY concerns. That is how "the story goes" in these…

I think you're conflating several different strands of this story - the idea that San Mateo withdrew from BART in part for NYMBY-ish and exclusionary reasons is fairly well supported.

It’s fascinating how quickly “NIMBY” has become a very generic and rather vicious moral pejorative applied to anyone that does not support development.

It previously described people who did not support development in their neighborhood, but would support it elsewhere.

Now it just means “anyone opposed to any development I deem a moral/ethical/equity imperative”.

I remember when pro-development sentiment was recognized as gentrifying wealth extraction, and both anti-progressive and anti-environmentalist.

Now it’s somehow exclusionary and anti-progressive to not support high-density development projects backed by national real estate firms with trillion-plus dollar investment funds.

Wealth extraction from a permanent renter class is progressive orthodoxy, and individual residents are the baddies. Talk about a PR coup.

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