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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#31

Post by erichocean »

majormajor wrote: post #22
secabeen wrote: post #8

I took a number of classes with Mearshiemer in college. He's right on many things, wrong on others. In this case, he's right that NATO expansion at least contributed to the current situation, but I think he's wrong in undervaluing the great increases in peace and prosperity that have been gained in those countries that did join NATO.

Maybe Russia should just join NATO. This would require Russia to change in a lot of ways from how Putin runs things, but who would that be bad for, really?

> Maybe Russia should just join NATO.

Putin asked Bill Clinton about this in 2000; was rebuffed.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#32

Post by purpmint008 »

propesh wrote: post #12

Quoted post unavailable.

Do you know about what Victoria Nuland (leaked intercepted tapes), Senator John McCain, Senator Lindsay Graham, Hunter Biden, CIA John Brennan, etc. did in Ukraine?

Do you know that Zelenskyy had a sub-28% approval rating from his own population because he threatened to acquire nuclear weapons, threatened to join NATO, join the EU (comes with military connections also, BTW), take back Crimea and the entirety of the Donbas, etc.? His population mostly wanted Austria-style neutrality but he was being strung along by the US because we wanted to turn it into a battering ram against Russia.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#33

Post by nevermindiguess »

propesh wrote: post #19
empressplay wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One man shoots another man in the street. To say that act is strictly down to the two of them is an extremely naive and outdated philosophy.

Ok, who is to blame outside the hand-waiving of the whole world? And I guess we should just throw out common criminal law foundations of 5000 years. Fine, I say lets blame the sun.

If an external party pays the corrupt government of one of the two parties, to genocide their own citizens, that external third party is complicit in war.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#34

Post by dragonwriter »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #25
majormajor wrote: post #9

Mearsheimer also is directly blaming Ukraine here in a way that hardly seems reasonable. "When you’re a country like Ukraine and you live next door to a great power like Russia, you have to pay careful attention to what the Russians think, because if you take a stick and you poke them in the eye, they’re going to retaliate. States in the Western hemisphere understand this full well with regard to the United States."…

>This seems too forgiving of Russia and also the US re: Central and South America. He seems to be saying that Russia/the US reaction is probably morally wrong, but completely expected behavior. And the moral aspect isn't worth considering as history has shown that great powers usually act out of strategic interest not moral consideration. Yeah, it'd be great if great power politics ended. Ukraine trying to change to…

> And the moral aspect isn't worth considering as history has shown that great powers usually act out of strategic interest not moral consideration

If you are trying to decide how to exert influence on how your country should react, rather than being a passive observer, the moral aspect is worth considering.

If you are merely a passive observer, you aren't worth considering.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#35

Post by majormajor »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #25
majormajor wrote: post #9

Mearsheimer also is directly blaming Ukraine here in a way that hardly seems reasonable. "When you’re a country like Ukraine and you live next door to a great power like Russia, you have to pay careful attention to what the Russians think, because if you take a stick and you poke them in the eye, they’re going to retaliate. States in the Western hemisphere understand this full well with regard to the United States."…

>This seems too forgiving of Russia and also the US re: Central and South America. He seems to be saying that Russia/the US reaction is probably morally wrong, but completely expected behavior. And the moral aspect isn't worth considering as history has shown that great powers usually act out of strategic interest not moral consideration. Yeah, it'd be great if great power politics ended. Ukraine trying to change to…

"Blame"/"responsibility"/"at fault" all seem like questions with a certain natural moral slant to them. He's putting moral fault onto the US for failing to properly respect the likely immoral acts of Putin? That's ludicrous.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#36

Post by empressplay »

propesh wrote: post #19
empressplay wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One man shoots another man in the street. To say that act is strictly down to the two of them is an extremely naive and outdated philosophy.

Ok, who is to blame outside the hand-waiving of the whole world? And I guess we should just throw out common criminal law foundations of 5000 years. Fine, I say lets blame the sun.

No, you're right, this is a failing of the whole world, or at least all those that hold any power in it. The answer here is to adapt and mitigate these sorts of outcomes in the future by dropping our current 'us vs them' ideology and replace it with one that looks out for the interests of everyone, understanding that our needs as humans for security and stability are largely universal, and our self-interests need to be tempered.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#37

Post by mantas »

shkkmo wrote: post #27

> We should be pivoting out of Europe to deal with China in a laser-like fashion, number one. And, number two, we should be working overtime to create friendly relations with the Russians. The Russians are part of our balancing coalition against China. If you live in a world where there are three great powers—China, Russia, and the United States—and one of those great powers, China, is a peer competitor, what you wan…

Because people in central-eastern europe keep making noise about Russia's actions. Can't they just shut up and let Russia take advantage of them?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#38

Post by warner_of_doom »

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period.

You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezinski, George Friedman, Peter Zeihan, George Kennan, Noam Chomsky, Peter Hitchens, Gonzalo Lira, Tim Marshall, Robert D Kaplan, etc., etc. to gain some insight into the other and more complex side of this story. Their books are a good and quick read.

I am a proud American -- but, I am convinced that my country started this entire episode and planned to have it be so for a long, long time. 9/11, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, etc. just got in their way. Instead of drawing a rational meet-me-in-the-middle red-line with Russia (ex: Poland and the Baltics) that we could live with, we decided to take Ukraine for this ride. We did that. We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes, grabbing Crimea back, grabbing Luhansk and Donestk, joining NATO and the EU, etc. -- instead of encouraging Austria-like neutrality, we promoted our-way-or-the-highway.

And now what are we doing? Fighting to the last Ukrainian? Fighting until they lose even more in a country that has lost ~20% of its population from its peak? We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong!

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#39

Post by erichocean »

majormajor wrote: post #24
empressplay wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Canadian. As a Canadian I am fully aware that my country exists strictly at the whim of the US. If we were to decide to form a military alliance with Russia, hosting Russian troops on our soil, Canada would be invaded by the US in a New York minute. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. It sucks of course but it is what it is. That is all he is saying.

So if that happened... who would you blame? Russia?

I'd blame Canada for putting the Russian military on American's doorstep.

Who would you blame?

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