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Why are there so many bad bosses?

freakonomics.com

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Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#31
post #12

The idea of management being the only road for advancement has always seemed extremely self-destructive to me. I recently quit my job as a senior developer at a company because they wouldn't even pay me one of the upper pay scales for developers, because a requirement for that was that I'd have to take some sort of organisational responsibility outside my team. The fact that I did a lot of organisation and steering i…

It’s unfortunate, but I’ve found that the people who end up running companies are the ones who do well with the hierarchical structure, so they end up biasing the company towards that model. Anyone who wants to “move up” or contribute in a more meaningful way is measured against this ideal. It’s definitely frustrating to see that you are having clear impact on the success and operation of a team but not be recognized for it.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#32
post #24
post #12

The idea of management being the only road for advancement has always seemed extremely self-destructive to me. I recently quit my job as a senior developer at a company because they wouldn't even pay me one of the upper pay scales for developers, because a requirement for that was that I'd have to take some sort of organisational responsibility outside my team. The fact that I did a lot of organisation and steering i…

Did he work for Koch? They’re fairly famous for disconnecting compensation from supervision/leadership - I.e. individual contributors earning more than their bosses.

No, General Electric Information Services.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#33
post #8

Since I became an engineering manager myself, I find myself looking back with more sympathy to my past managers. Engineers are difficult people to manage.

This is absolute bullshit. After being an IC, a tech lead and an engineering manager I can tell you that the one thing is engineers mainly want to be left alone to do their jobs. The job as manager is to stop the pressure from everyone in the company demanding they do everything more quickly to meet some arbitrary bullshit deadline. This attitude infuriates me. Its weak managers who dont know what they are doing that…

>This is absolute bullshit.

>So sick of this attitude.

I think you are proving his point.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#34
This hits close to home:

> JOHNSON: For me, this is where the idea of splitting out those levels of seniority — so maybe you don’t become the manager, but you become a technical expert and you are paid and rewarded for that — is something that helps with the incentives. What I would say on that, though, is often we have this dual-career track of, “Okay, you can be a manager, or you can be a technical specialist.” But even though you might get a quote-unquote promotion and be paid more, the technical specialists still might be excluded from high-level conversations. [...]

Being an IC, I usually find out about a technical direction that arose out of management discussions and by the time I hear about it it's usually too far along to change course of, and have to watch it play out. At best it's a learning experience, that can refine the next attempt. Other times it's a rabbit-hole with no light at the end of the tunnel. Fortunately this usually happens on other projects, but sometimes I join a project mid-way and there's redesign that happens along the way, or banked for v2. This is a symptom of a top-down style of company management. A more technically managed company with former engineers all the way to the CEO are less likely to be this way. Unfortunately as even those companies grow, and more layers of management are added, not every link in the chains can be so-minded and there's a disconnect.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#35
post #8

Since I became an engineering manager myself, I find myself looking back with more sympathy to my past managers. Engineers are difficult people to manage.

Out of curiosity, how would you rank these?

  - approval of your manager
  - approval of your engineers
  - approval of your customers on things your team has delivered
  - correcting course set by upper-management
  - communicating high-level directions to engineers
  - communicating and getting action on issues raised by engineers to higher-ups
  - levelling up your engineers and team
  - likeliness of promotion in title or compensation
  - anything else important that I didn't list
Other than putting promotion/compensation as high as it should go, was there any discomfort/doubt in trying to be honest with any of the items?

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#36
Society is still grappling with this new world where being technical and good at it matters as much as, and in many cases, more than knowing people (business) or rules (law).

I.e. business/law/finance used to run the world for centuries, suddenly technology talent is valued, but the old power structure doesn’t know how to keep these people a peg below where they ‘belong’. Spending more money, and being the ‘boss’ of people will be ‘valued’ by the ōld-ˈɡärd more than technology chops for many years to come.

Forcing people who want to have more of an impact and be paid more into ‘boss’ like rolls is a causality of this old power structure being challenged.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#37
post #12

The idea of management being the only road for advancement has always seemed extremely self-destructive to me. I recently quit my job as a senior developer at a company because they wouldn't even pay me one of the upper pay scales for developers, because a requirement for that was that I'd have to take some sort of organisational responsibility outside my team. The fact that I did a lot of organisation and steering i…

At my company we have recently rolled out a new framework where the IC track has rungs that run parallel to middle management roles.

we're calling it "advanced professional", and has 3 levels, the highest being equivalent to the leader of a function, if you're familiar with the domain / function / specialty paradigm. This is essentially a director level individual contributor which I think is a pretty cool.

We're just a medium sized services company (localization, AI training data production, digital marketing). so if we're doing this I expect a lot of people will be soon enough.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#38
I hate to be that guy, but I believe that many line managers & middle managers aren't honestly needed in knowledge work at a certain level of self-managing ICs with a common vision. It's increasingly rare to find "good" managers among the bad. The good ones tend to find new jobs or get promoted and continue to climb the ladder. The bad ones? They also get promotions to take over the good ones jobs and they stay around forever.

They get in the way majority of the time. They try to make decisions for their own self interests rather than empowering their teams to make the best ones possible. They don't say no to things, but rather use it as yet another opportunity for a "quick win". They get offended easily and have fragile egos with blunt feedback. Literally the opposite of every characteristics of a "good manager".

Many people in these roles are classic examples of narcissism and nepotism. Nobody has ever humbled them before or questioned their confidence that can easily be seen as an authority figure in most developer teams. I'm sad to be saying this, but I don't think many developers stand their own ground against these types of people and they should. Teams should be able to vote out their bad managers because it is so apparent on certain teams that there's a bad manager.

Even with decent managers on a team, you still hardly get anything meaningful done. You can spend years on things that have little to no impact externally, but will be praised internally because of the "hard work" done even at the cost of morale and questioning ICs saying "why are we still doing this?". Good managers should see through this bullshit and get the team to self-direct course by talking to everyone and getting a sentiment for a new common vision.

Bonus: Steve Jobs thinking most managers are bozos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQKis2Cfpeo

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#39

Society is still grappling with this new world where being technical and good at it matters as much as, and in many cases, more than knowing people (business) or rules (law). I.e. business/law/finance used to run the world for centuries, suddenly technology talent is valued, but the old power structure doesn’t know how to keep these people a peg below where they ‘belong’. Spending more money, and being the ‘boss’ of…

> Society is still grappling with this new world where being technical and good at it matters as much as, and in many cases, more than knowing people (business) or rules (law).

Programming is also about knowing rules; just different kinds of rules.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#40
post #8

Since I became an engineering manager myself, I find myself looking back with more sympathy to my past managers. Engineers are difficult people to manage.

> Engineers are difficult people to manage.

My experience is different: engineers are quite comfortable to manage. What makes management hard is the whole (office) politics with respect to your management career and the managers above you.

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