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No one cared about my spreadsheets

econlib.org

31–40 of 413 posts

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#31

> Several programmer friends advised me to learn a new programming language like Python to do everything automatically, but I’m 98% sure that would have taken even longer – and introduced numerous additional errors into the results. I did plenty of programming in my youth, and I know my limitations. I'm biased since I don't know spreadsheets at all, but I think Python code would have been far more reviewable.

That bad justification for choosing a very wrong tool for the job does not instill confidence for other logic employed by the author.

“I used the tool that obfuscates my work that I’m trying to get others to review and buy in on because I consider myself hopeless at clearer tools and don’t want to even try. Why will no one engage with my obfuscated work?”

I mean even he admits he made and corrected a ton of mistakes in his beast of excel. It’s absurd to think anyone would want to wade through that mess.

Intentional or not, if one makes it impractical and unreasonable to crosscheck ones work then critics shouldn’t be expected to unravel it to point to the internal error. They only need to point to external evidence in the contrary.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#32
This is a great example of how money and market does not encompass all of life.

I didn't read the book, regrettably, so I'm not sure if that's besides the point, but the value of education is a sum of many values for the society as whole that seems a bit hard to put a numerical value on in a spreadsheet. I think the reductionism is kind of obvious.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#33

Just my dumb opinion here, but... there's something extremely implausible on its face about the idea that a sufficiently complex spreadsheet could calculate the difference in value generated from kids going to school versus kids not going to school. If people could be convinced that this was something more than a castle in the sky, maybe it would get more attention. I imagine a bunch of academics put their fingers to…

I think, in part, Caplan has made a fairly classic error in attempting to figure out the optimal strategy for an individual within an existing system, where small numbers of individuals deviating generally doesn't matter, and then using those results to make a policy recommendation about how to change the system en masse in a way that will radically change the system. His spreadsheets don't answer many questions I might have about such systemic changes, for example, would the reduction in college graduates reduce our nation's economic competitiveness? If it did, how would that effect overall quality of life for average Americans? I don't find compelling answers to these questions in his spreadsheets (nor his book).

This is not an attempt to defend the system as it exists now but I think Caplan does a much better job outlining a problem than making his case for a solution.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#34
post #23

This reminds me of people online who construct gigantic walls of bad faith argument text and insist that it's up to everyone else to "debate them" and spend hours deconstructing their argument. Just possibly, dude, your argument isn't worth anyone else's time to debunk.

> Just possibly, dude, your argument isn't worth anyone else's time to debunk.

Wow, that's one of the most dismissive remarks I've seen here in quite a while. It also does not seem like you could possibly believe it yourself. Education is a huge chunk of everyone's life, of course it's important to know the upsides and downsides. The returns are one aspect (I haven't read the book, it honestly sounds depressing, but I'm also intrigued) and calculating those with the highest reasonable precision seems like an important input to me, regardless of whether we like the answer. Why would you dismiss this altogether as not even worth anyone's time to look into?

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#35
post #7

Has anyone here read the book? I have a hard time imagining that a technical education (e.g. engineering, physics, forestry, chemistry) would be worthless if someone wants to work in that field. Social sciences however... but of course I'm biased there.

I have read the book. He says that engineering degrees are basically the one exception. They're like trade schools. Also, e.g. a social science degree is useful if you're going to be a social science professor/academic, but otherwise none of the skills or knowledge are transferable. He also says that having any degree is "worth it" to an individual, monetarily. It's just not worth it to society to require everyone to…

> otherwise none of the skills or knowledge are transferable.

While I understand the source of this statement and why people often say this, I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, at least anecdotally.

For example, I have a degree in Theater. Which, on the surface, doesn't transfer well to, say, software engineering or law or accounting or teaching or social work.

But is that really true? To pick a popular theatre-related discipline, consider what an actor does:

- They show up on time (to scenes, to rehearsal, to performances)

- They can memorize vast amounts of material in a relatively short period of time verbatim

- They work well with others

- They work well individually

- They can take direction

- They can take constructive criticism

- They meet deadlines under pressure (the show must go on!)

- They can put themselves in other people's shoes (Method acting, ftw)

- They know how to do research (how does a 1940s soldier talk, dress, walk, act?)

- They are comfortable speaking in front of groups

- They can speak clearly and enunciate appropriately (especially good in a remote world with fuzzy tech!)

And so on and so forth...

I don't really care what industry you're in, those are desirable qualities for ANY hiring manager! I would be THRILLED if candidates metaphorically walked through the door with evidence of those skill sets under their belt! This is the holy grail of "soft skills" that everyone looks for, whether you're a doctor or a restaurant manager or a postal worker.

I've had a lot of jobs in my career, but I've never in my life walked onto a job and known everything I need to know. There's a LOT of on the job training -- so much that I might as well be taking a boot camp at every new job!

And so from that perspective, someone who walks in with a theater or really any kind of arts or social science degree and a modicum of Python under their belt is a very, very attractive hire to me. I can teach you our framework of choice and how to run tests and how to use Jira, but I don't have time to teach you how to learn or how to communicate or how to take direction.

Anyway, my two cents.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#36
“ Several programmer friends advised me to learn a new programming language like Python to do everything automatically, but I’m 98% sure that would have taken even longer – and introduced numerous additional errors into the results. I did plenty of programming in my youth, and I know my limitations.”

This screams stubbornness and a lack of willingness to push past a small barrier to me. Maybe unwarranted, but that also makes me less willing to accept his ideas. Who knows what evidence, lead, etc. was met with the same laziness?

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read the book. He says that engineering degrees are basically the one exception. They're like trade schools. Also, e.g. a social science degree is useful if you're going to be a social science professor/academic, but otherwise none of the skills or knowledge are transferable. He also says that having any degree is "worth it" to an individual, monetarily. It's just not worth it to society to require everyone to…

> He also says that having any degree is "worth it" to an individual, monetarily. It's just not worth it to society to require everyone to have education they don't use. Half of Finnish people between 35 and 44 have a degree, whereas only 7% of people in that age range from South Africa do, so South Africa must be much better off than Finland.

Fascinating to think that all you have to do is get 43 out of 100 people in South Africa degrees and it will be Finland.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read the book. He says that engineering degrees are basically the one exception. They're like trade schools. Also, e.g. a social science degree is useful if you're going to be a social science professor/academic, but otherwise none of the skills or knowledge are transferable. He also says that having any degree is "worth it" to an individual, monetarily. It's just not worth it to society to require everyone to…

> He also says that having any degree is "worth it" to an individual, monetarily. It's just not worth it to society to require everyone to have education they don't use. Half of Finnish people between 35 and 44 have a degree, whereas only 7% of people in that age range from South Africa do, so South Africa must be much better off than Finland.

No, he's saying that everyone having a degree isn't the difference between Finland and South Africa.

If South Africa suddenly had as many degree holders as Finland, it wouldn't suddenly become Finland.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#39
post #10

If you want people to look at your work (of any sort) it has to be at least marginally reader approachable. Novel thinking wrapped in a huge ball of spreadsheets isn’t that. Per authors own words it takes whole day author guided tour to get through it.

On the other hand, I often see studies where I'm quite curious to reproduce it and I just can't. Just today: saw a 2007 study from a university finding a correlation between sleep quality (deep sleep phase duration) and exposure to a GSM-frequency signal for 3 hours (a long, but not unusual/absurd, phone call) before sleep, even though the participants could not tell better than chance whether they had been exposed... would love to see if that reproduces even though the p value was not bad, but I just don't have the people nor the radiation calibration equipment nor the sleep lab nor anything.

Even so much as a survey is hard to properly reproduce, definitely more than a day's worth of work if you need to go out and find a random pool of surveyees. Opening up a spreadsheet in your favorite software sounds fairly approachable by comparison, assuming it has no fancy university-level mathematics in it.

Whether it is fun to talk to people for a survey vs. sit through pages of arithmetic is a whole other question, though.

Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets

#40
I’ve read a few of his books, this and the “open borders” one. I think the problem is it’s kind of “preaching to the choir” for people who are already ideologically aligned. As in, the solutions he advocates, despite being backed up with lots of numbers, are not actually convincing anyone who wasn’t already receptive.

So it just gets dismissed as “not even wrong” unfairly or not.

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