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Theses on Sleep

guzey.com

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Re: Theses on Sleep

#31

Post by nnoitra »

RandomThrow321 wrote: post #23
guzey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the readers, here's my actual argument ( https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#comfortable-modern-sleep-... ): >1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much. >2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too…

And here's an excerpt where you repeatedly say that modern sleep is unnatural. > Modern sleep, in its infinite comfort, is an unnatural superstimulus that overwhelms our brains with pleasure and comfort (note: I’m not saying that it’s bad, simply that being in bed today is much more pleasurable than being in “bed” in the past.) > Think about sleep 10,000 years ago. You sleep in a cave, in a hut, or under the sky, wit…

Ouch. Ambient sounds of the forest are a lot better than the modern equivalent of loud neighbors and drilling. He also seems to have forgotten that humans built fires. Caves have great sound insulation and I'm pretty sure our ancestors knew how to choose their caves.

I have spent years being a sleep deprived student because the dorms were super noisy with random parties and paper thin walls so I really can't relate to the implied utter comfortable sleeping habits of modern people. I'm sure there are people complaining about noise pollution in NY as well.

No one in my circle sleeps on an overpriced mattress. Mostly it's just the bed the place that we rent has. I never could connect with articles implying modern people live in these utterly comfortable utopias when it's really not the case. People are depressed. Especially males are doing horribly.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#32

Post by guzey »

RandomThrow321 wrote: post #22
guzey wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious - what do you believe I should've done? How do you discredit a p-hacked small-n experiment, aside from noting that it should not be trusted a priori due to the extreme bias of the results expected from such kind of studies?

Is all sleep science based p-hacked small-n experiments? To your point - I probably would have tried to rely on research that supports your points (which you've got me interested in now). I probably wouldn't have included a handful of anecdotes in the the appendix (including your own and Elon Musk's!), as well as 8 replies from a reddit thread as a supporting section. I probably also wouldn't equate "a person with an…

>I probably also wouldn't equate "a person with an ADRB1 mutation can sleep less" and "a single individual that underwent brain surgery can sleep less" with "Decreasing sleep by 1-2 hours a night in the long-term has no negative health effects".

I made 5 points in that section (https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#decreasing-sleep-by-1-2-h...):

> 1. A sleep researcher who trains sailors to sleep efficiently in order to maximize their race performance believes that 4.5-5.5 hours of sleep is fine.

> 2. 70% of 84 hunter-gatherers studied in 2013 slept less than 7 hours per day, with 46% sleeping less than 6 hours.

> 3. A single-point mutation can decrease the amount of required sleep by 2 hours, with no negative side-effects.

> 4. A brain surgery can decrease the amount of sleep required by 3 hours, with no negative-side effects.

> 5. Sleep is not required for memory consolidation.

You cited (3) and (4) but ignored (1), (2), and (5) all of which are based on studying dozens and hundreds of people.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#34

Post by slibhb »

guzey wrote: post #21
rich_sasha wrote: post #7

The whole “natural” thing is maybe a good source of ideas to try, but that’s it. A list of things that are totally unnatural: brushing teeth, antibiotics, painkillers, surgery, hip replacements, antidepressants, infant mortality below 10%, not dying of an ear infection, clean chlorinated water...

For the readers, here's my actual argument ( https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/#comfortable-modern-sleep-... ): >1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much. >2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too…

Is there any way to not experience sleepiness or hunger? Do overweight people never experience hunger?

Re: Theses on Sleep

#35

Post by tayo42 »

There's a lot, the appeal to how humans lived 10k years ago seems odd though. Just because they lived in a certain way doesn't mean it's optimal. This is plainly obvious when you look at diets. Just because something was done out of necessity doesn't mean it's right. Weak argument right off the bat.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#36

Post by georgewsinger »

nnoitra wrote: post #31
RandomThrow321 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's an excerpt where you repeatedly say that modern sleep is unnatural. > Modern sleep, in its infinite comfort, is an unnatural superstimulus that overwhelms our brains with pleasure and comfort (note: I’m not saying that it’s bad, simply that being in bed today is much more pleasurable than being in “bed” in the past.) > Think about sleep 10,000 years ago. You sleep in a cave, in a hut, or under the sky, wit…

Ouch. Ambient sounds of the forest are a lot better than the modern equivalent of loud neighbors and drilling. He also seems to have forgotten that humans built fires. Caves have great sound insulation and I'm pretty sure our ancestors knew how to choose their caves. I have spent years being a sleep deprived student because the dorms were super noisy with random parties and paper thin walls so I really can't relate t…

A few years ago I bought a mattress for less than $100 from Amazon to sleep on.

While it was funny to complain about how uncomfortable this cheap mattress was, it was still an extremely luxurious piece of technology unfathomable to any cave dweller.

It doesn't seem so crazy to me to wonder whether modern mattresses like these are incentivizing us to sleep longer than what is optimal.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#37

Post by quesera »

quacked wrote: post #10

Irrelevant to the post, but relevant to sleeping--I fixed my trouble sleeping with candles. Right before I want to go to sleep, I darken the whole house, light one or two candles, and read a slow-paced book. 15 minutes to drowsiness, 5 minutes to sleep, every time. I'll even look at a blue-light screen right up until candle-time.

A friend of mine did that.

Burned her house down, killed her pets (fish), and barely survived herself.

She now recommends not leaving candles burning unattended.

There might be a battery-powered candle-like LED thing that gets the same results.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#38

Post by James_Henry »

nnoitra wrote: post #31
RandomThrow321 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's an excerpt where you repeatedly say that modern sleep is unnatural. > Modern sleep, in its infinite comfort, is an unnatural superstimulus that overwhelms our brains with pleasure and comfort (note: I’m not saying that it’s bad, simply that being in bed today is much more pleasurable than being in “bed” in the past.) > Think about sleep 10,000 years ago. You sleep in a cave, in a hut, or under the sky, wit…

Ouch. Ambient sounds of the forest are a lot better than the modern equivalent of loud neighbors and drilling. He also seems to have forgotten that humans built fires. Caves have great sound insulation and I'm pretty sure our ancestors knew how to choose their caves. I have spent years being a sleep deprived student because the dorms were super noisy with random parties and paper thin walls so I really can't relate t…

People have research modern pre-industrial societies and while they do have fires and nicer sounds than drilling they don't sleep in caves. Also birds are really loud sometimes.

I don't think you'd want to sleep in their circumstances over yours, but maybe you would. I for one like camping quite a bit even though I do usually get much less sleep while camping because I'll stay up late around a fire and then wake up at sunrise. I'm sure that'd change if I were out in the woods for more than a week.

Also, maybe your not-utterly-comfortable utopia is making people, maybe especially males, depressed!

Re: Theses on Sleep

#39

Post by dreig »

guzey wrote: post #27
RandomThrow321 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's an excerpt where you repeatedly say that modern sleep is unnatural. > Modern sleep, in its infinite comfort, is an unnatural superstimulus that overwhelms our brains with pleasure and comfort (note: I’m not saying that it’s bad, simply that being in bed today is much more pleasurable than being in “bed” in the past.) > Think about sleep 10,000 years ago. You sleep in a cave, in a hut, or under the sky, wit…

Yep, and here's conclusion of this argument: >Now, what if the only sleep available to you was modern sleep? > 1. If you don’t sleep at all, you go crazy, because some amount of sleep is necessary. > 2. If you sleep just enough to be awake during the day, you’ll be dreaming of getting a nap at the sight of a bed and will be distracted and sleepy all the time. Importantly, I claim, in this situation, the feeling of sl…

You may attempt to apply the same analogy to drinking water, and see that it doesn't work. If you drink as much as you want, then you'll probably drink too much (with whatever negative consequences arising as a result). But, except for some extreme circumstances, I don't think people drink much more than is necessary to quench their thirst.

That is your conclusion might still be correct, but it doesn't follow from the analogy with eating.

Re: Theses on Sleep

#40

Post by James_Henry »

tayo42 wrote: post #35

There's a lot, the appeal to how humans lived 10k years ago seems odd though. Just because they lived in a certain way doesn't mean it's optimal. This is plainly obvious when you look at diets. Just because something was done out of necessity doesn't mean it's right. Weak argument right off the bat.

I don't think he's using the appeal to say that the way pre-industrial people live is optimal. He's saying that maybe 7-9 hours isn't optimal.
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