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Branch off of main

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Re: Branch off of main

#31

Post by softwarebeware »

kbrannigan wrote: post #26
vorpalhex wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same reason you aren't supposed to use the words: + master + slave + blacklist + whitelist + grandfather + brown bag + manpower + hijack + kill The list goes on (and on) and I have not transcribed even a portion of it. https://itconnect.uw.edu/work/inclusive-language-guide/ https://blog.ongig.com/writing-job-descriptions/a-list-of-of...

I am black but not from the USA I'm from the Caribbean. It's hilarious how people perceive those who look like me. Like we are some hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech. It's even worse when some white Americans are afraid to joke around me or poke fun at me, because they don't want to punch down. Meanwhile I feel more privileged than most white Americans. I speak 3 languages perfect…

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception.

But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage.

The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this that I know about: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html

Besides, "trunk" is an objectively more correct metaphor for the main "branch" in a "source tree".

Re: Branch off of main

#32

Post by swagasaurus-rex »

moffkalast wrote: post #21
kayodelycaon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grandfather. If you look at the website, it explains in detail: A “grandfather” clause, “grandfather” policy or “grandfathering” in IT s a provision in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations while a new rule will apply to all future cases. Those exempt from the new rule are said to have grandfather rights, acquired rights, or to have been grandfathered in. Why it’s problematic: “Grandfatheri…

> The cakewalk was a pre-Civil War dance performed by enslaved people, and the winner of which would be given a cake. This is the original source for the phrases “takes the cake” and “cakewalk.” Because of this history, this word and phrase should be avoided. > Brown bags trace back to the “brown paper bag test,” which was traditionally used to judge skin color by certain African-American sororities and fraternities.…

To know you shouldn't use these phrases, you need to know the context.

Therefore, by not using these words, you're reminded of the context. Any time somebody notices you substituting a phrase and they know why, they will be reminded of the context.

Like all self-censorship, it immerses the speaker in the truth while they trip overthemselves trying not to say that thing.

It's like saying, "Don't think about elephants." Now everybody is thinking about it.

Re: Branch off of main

#33

Post by swagasaurus-rex »

softwarebeware wrote: post #31
kbrannigan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am black but not from the USA I'm from the Caribbean. It's hilarious how people perceive those who look like me. Like we are some hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech. It's even worse when some white Americans are afraid to joke around me or poke fun at me, because they don't want to punch down. Meanwhile I feel more privileged than most white Americans. I speak 3 languages perfect…

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

Master is used in many context like master key, mastering a song, master copy, having mastery in something.

To stir up controversy because one interpretation is "problematic" just emphasizes that interpretation and reminds everybody that they're not suffering from enough guilt about past events they had no personal involvement in.

Re: Branch off of main

#34

Post by trackflak »

steelstraw wrote: post #6
troon-lover wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

That's probably what makes me uncomfortable with these mandated word changes.

I could argue the linguistics, and the racial connotations never occoured to me then and don't convince me now. But what really makes me uncomfortable is the feeling that I'm surrendering part of my soul to some larger conscience that could turn on me at a whim.

Re: Branch off of main

#35

Post by [deleted] »

softwarebeware wrote: post #31
kbrannigan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am black but not from the USA I'm from the Caribbean. It's hilarious how people perceive those who look like me. Like we are some hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech. It's even worse when some white Americans are afraid to joke around me or poke fun at me, because they don't want to punch down. Meanwhile I feel more privileged than most white Americans. I speak 3 languages perfect…

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

[deleted]

Re: Branch off of main

#36

Post by dudeman13 »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #23
moffkalast wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cakewalk was a pre-Civil War dance performed by enslaved people, and the winner of which would be given a cake. This is the original source for the phrases “takes the cake” and “cakewalk.” Because of this history, this word and phrase should be avoided. > Brown bags trace back to the “brown paper bag test,” which was traditionally used to judge skin color by certain African-American sororities and fraternities.…

Some of the stuff in the list is okay. The master/slave change is something I agree with. Black/white I can see… Some of this feels like someone tried really hard to find problems that didn’t exist and fix them.

>Some of this feels like someone tried really hard to find problems that didn’t exist and fix them.

That's how a lot of people feel about master/slave and black/white.

Re: Branch off of main

#37

Post by swagasaurus-rex »

vorpalhex wrote: post #7
troon-lover wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

The same reason you aren't supposed to use the words: + master + slave + blacklist + whitelist + grandfather + brown bag + manpower + hijack + kill The list goes on (and on) and I have not transcribed even a portion of it. https://itconnect.uw.edu/work/inclusive-language-guide/ https://blog.ongig.com/writing-job-descriptions/a-list-of-of...

By not saying these words, how are we helping minorities?

Can somebody please be clear on how ACTUAL PROBLEMS suffered by the disavantaged are solved by wordplay? Words don't cure poverty. Words don't reverse socioeconomic trends. Words don't give opportunity, cure abuses, change what our ancestors went through.

To me it looks very much like signalling, with no real effort.

Re: Branch off of main

#38

Post by trackflak »

softwarebeware wrote: post #31
kbrannigan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am black but not from the USA I'm from the Caribbean. It's hilarious how people perceive those who look like me. Like we are some hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech. It's even worse when some white Americans are afraid to joke around me or poke fun at me, because they don't want to punch down. Meanwhile I feel more privileged than most white Americans. I speak 3 languages perfect…

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

Master has a history in English long before the Transatlantic slave trade. The original sense in English meant "teacher": https://www.etymonline.com/word/master#etymonline_v_9692

It is very disengenous (and Americentric) to suggest we should revise our language just because of one event. That's simply giving more ground to the wrongdoers. Slave owners only used the word because of its existing connotations, after all.

Its ok to have a master copy, it is desirable to master your soul, someone might be of high station and therefore a master. Etc. It is a useful word. We shouldn't aim to limit the range of expression or accuracy of our words.

Re: Branch off of main

#39

Post by kayodelycaon »

ebiester wrote: post #25
kayodelycaon wrote: post #9

> So, should managers code, design, and in other ways contribute in some way to production code or design? Sure, I don't see any reason they can't. Just understand the boundaries and stay out of other people's way. Has this person been a manager? The amount of time is takes to keep up to date enough to make a net positive contribution is non-trivial. Doing this on top of management responsibilities? Good luck. The co…

It all depends on how large the team is and the scope of responsibility. I see, in practice, three types of manager roles. The first is the team lead manager. This team has 3-5 people on it, and the tech lead codes small features and pairs with other developers, and has a coaching role. Their people management skills are relatively low weight, and their managers, whether senior managers or directors, are doing the he…

Agreed. I'm moving towards a team lead role at some point. I've volunteered in three positions in orgs outside of work. Team lead is about where my skills and interests end.

Re: Branch off of main

#40

Post by lostcolony »

swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #33
softwarebeware wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

Master is used in many context like master key, mastering a song, master copy, having mastery in something. To stir up controversy because one interpretation is "problematic" just emphasizes that interpretation and reminds everybody that they're not suffering from enough guilt about past events they had no personal involvement in.

I feel like that logic could be used to excuse every historical term with baggage.

Plus, it's not really stirring up controversy saying "hey, we should probably change the term to ~this~, which is equally or more descriptive, in a way that doesn't rely on historically problematic contexts". I think what you're focusing on is chiding people who still use the older terms; I've never seen that happen. I've seen people mix terminologies when discussing something, and oftentimes that has led to the person using the outdated instead using the updated, possibly with a conversation in between, but I've not seen someone call out "how DARE you use (technically-correct-but-outdated-term)!"

That said, I've also never seen anyone dispense with the word 'master' -except- in contexts where it is used to differentiate from 'slaves'. The parent post also only references in that context (though the great-grandparent calls both out separately, though one right after the other, which is likely what is muddling things).

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