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Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

politico.com

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Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#31

Post by veb »

chrisseaton wrote: post #14
jacquesm wrote: post #4

This is quite disgusting. If there is one place where your privacy should be guarded it is there, plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk.

> plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk How's that legally done? Is suicide even a crime in most countries? I don't think it is.

Not most countries, but it is illegal in some... see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

In NZ I do know the cops like to kick you when you're down. Let's say you've climbed a scaffold that's around a building and you want to jump but you are saved (as you had been on the phone with a suicide help line, and they passed the details to the Police), you get done with a trespass charge and can be convicted. I really hate reading stories like this - way to kick someone while they're at rock bottom, potentially making them actually do it so they don't have to go to court, get publicly shamed and potentially getting a criminal record.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#32

Post by [deleted] »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

[deleted]

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#33

Post by easrng »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #22
encryptluks2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically same experience. Even the mental health hotlines can be the same way. Unless you tell them you plan on killing yourself they say there is nothing they can do to help.

Yeah there's been 4 or 5 times where I really wanted someone to talk to, but I'm just not a suicidal person, so it feels weird to tie up a suicide hotline for my petty problems. So then you go to a therapist and they're like "You have to want to change". I don't know about that. I used to have friends. I don't want to change, I want to have friends again! Considering how much therapy costs, I've joked about just hiri…

You don't need to pay to talk about Linux, silly. There are plenty of people (Including trans girls (hey that's me)) who'd listen for free!

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#34

Post by cmg »

ketzo wrote: post #29
cmg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former Technology Director for TL here - I maintained and deeply extended their hotline software. We took confidentiality and anonymity very, very seriously. Operators never, ever see the phone number of the caller, and vice versa. Only admins can even look up a caller by phone number. There were other technical measures as well, but I'm not going to give them up in a public forum, hope that's understandable.

Just wanna say thank you for your work.

Thank you, ketzo. Unfortunately I'm no longer with the org and can't say for sure that they wouldn't ever try to do something like this. I'm working with a new group now on open source peer support software that also values privacy.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#36

Post by AHatLikeThat »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #22
encryptluks2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically same experience. Even the mental health hotlines can be the same way. Unless you tell them you plan on killing yourself they say there is nothing they can do to help.

Yeah there's been 4 or 5 times where I really wanted someone to talk to, but I'm just not a suicidal person, so it feels weird to tie up a suicide hotline for my petty problems. So then you go to a therapist and they're like "You have to want to change". I don't know about that. I used to have friends. I don't want to change, I want to have friends again! Considering how much therapy costs, I've joked about just hiri…

In New Mexico we have a non-profit staffed by volunteers trained in listening. It is not a suicide hotline exactly, they welcome anyone who feels like they need to talk. It's anonymous. I had several friends who volunteered there some years back; they'd get calls from old people who were lonely, stressed out students, all kinds of people. I don't think you have to be New Mexican to call. http://www.agoracares.org/ 505-277-3013 855-505-4505

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#37

Post by burnished »

alexashka wrote: post #28
ericbarrett wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact they may not even be employed; a relative of mine had to do a few shifts on such a hotline as part of a community service sentence for a non-violent misdemeanor.

Haha my mind cannot believe this to be true and yet it'd take some 4D chess to have made up such a strange, specific lie.

I'm not like, broadly familiar with community service as a punishment across the globe, cultures, and time, but the way I'm familiar with is a mandate of X hours and its on you to find a place to volunteer and get them to sign off. So its not like the court told them to do this particular act of penance, which yes would strain credulity, it was self selected.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#38

Post by [deleted] »

thrown_22 wrote: post #26
jacquesm wrote: post #4

This is quite disgusting. If there is one place where your privacy should be guarded it is there, plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk.

Whenever someone says that you should trust psychiatrists and the huge number of other similar professions I just point out that forcible admission is not rare and that they will share anything that they deem a 'risk', such as "I will shoot John if he chews with his mouth open one more time." If you want to get someone to listen to your problems without telling them to anyone you can't do better than the catholic chu…

[deleted]

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#39

Post by freedomben »

LegitShady wrote: post #9
Barrin92 wrote: post #5

Two sentences in that piece are particularly amazing taken together: >"Data science and AI are at the heart of the organization — ensuring, it says, that those in the highest-stakes situations wait no more than 30 seconds before they start messaging with one of its thousands of volunteer counselors [...]" >"Others questioned whether the people who text their pleas for help are actually consenting to having their data…

I'm not sure, if you're an organization targeting people in distress for suicide prevention help, you can pretend that those people are in a state of mind to agree to any disclosure to terms of use.

Yep, humans are really good at rationalizing decisions made for other reasons. I'm sure the people doing that have convinced themselves that it's totally ethical because they're "saving lives" (using some twisted definition of "save")

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#40

Post by fragmede »

chrisseaton wrote: post #24
jonwachob91 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Florida we call it the "Baker Act" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act

Scary isn't it. People used to think sexual desire in women was a 'mental illness'. I wonder what we're committing people for today that will embarrass us in the future.

Incarceration over cannabis is already seen as embarrassing. Mental health care overall, but especially drug addiction will be looked at as positively medieval. The barriers to treatment for ADHD. The disastrous state of treatment for people, but especially women with autism. Hell, the way women are treated by some mental health professionals, it might as well still be the dark ages where hysteria was considered a valid diagnosis.
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