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Diving into BoardGameGeek

jvanelteren.github.io

31–40 of 105 posts

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying bigger books are better because more pages = more complexity = more interesting plot. You must be a big fan of the dictionary. I've found the best board games are often the simplest ones. 2-player vanilla Splendor is one of my favourites and all it takes to play is a deck of cards and a stack of tokens. When both players have a good level, the depth of strategy of that game is crazy good. And unli…

That's a bad take. Words in a dictionary have no interactions. It's a list of words in alphabetical order and their definitions. Well crafted board game rules are about systems that interact with each other. You don't have to be rules heavy to have an interesting game, but the interactions between systems needs to be there to be interesting beyond some number of consecutive plays. A lot of lighter games will quickly…

Well, here's a more developed (and spicier) take then.

Larger board games are very often mere laundry lists of systems that can be found in many other board games. The longer games tend to have systems that MAKE the game long, rather than cause people to develop a strategy. One example is some mechanics forcing synchronous turns, or even worse, preventing you from preparing your turn in advance. Which gets even worse as the players have to iterate over more and more items in the turn checklist every time.

I have a strong but obviously opinionated dislike for these mechanics, so YMMV. Still, these longer games very often feel "same-y" to everything else because they don't truly bring original interactions between players. Playthroughs don't even always vary because as you re-play the game, a meta quickly develops and settles on a tiny portion of the offered gameplay.

More systems is also more opportunities to get the balance wrong. To fuck up. Which, if you don't tweak the rules preemptively, means the meta settling on an ever smaller part of the game.

Small, highly-focused games tend to develop much more interesting metas. Yes, they're not necessarily as varied in "number of things that can happen", but honestly, sometimes the gameplay elements I see in larger games are so incoherent you might as well play different games concurrently, and turn the whole thing into XKCD/2488.

To be clear, my point is not that shorter/simpler games are always better. It's that "longer doesn't always mean better, and more often than not means worse".

The same does apply to books. You can more reliably draw meaning from an extremely-well-crafted fable, than from a massive heptalogy. Your experience will be wildly different, and there are unique attributes for which you need length in order to achieve. But a rock solid series of books is a much rarer breed than an interesting fable. And a much larger waste of time if you don't end up drawing something from it.

And indeed the same applies to everything else. Assembly-line AAA video games that stuff themselves in a checklist of content to justify their price are often far worse in depth than shorter, sweeter ones (Portal, Hades, whatever). More seasons of Dexter and Game of Thrones ruined extremely deep and interesting works, whereas Breaking Bad crafted a truly unique experience by finishing exactly where the author intended it to. And your next lunch won't be improved by emptying your spice rack on it and overwhelming your palate, but by finding the exact mixes of ingredients that will result in a great meal.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#32
post #2

> Are heavy games really 'better' than 'light' games? To serious board game players, yes, more complex games are "better" because the simple games tend to have dozens of games with almost identical feel. If the game is complex there can be more variety. > But I don't have time to play games that are very complex and take many hours! And the authors personal biases heavily stilt things.

I've found bgg's weight to be pretty uncorrelated with whether the game actually survives when players make a sincere effort to win. An illustrative sample of games sorted by weight might be Splendor, Wingspan, Res Arcana, Roll for the Galaxy, Race for the Galaxy, Warhammer 40,000: Conquest, A Feast for Odin, and Through the Ages. Of these, the middle games Res Arcana and Roll for the Galaxy completely collapse under…

The entire game industry kinda survives off being the new hotness. Look at the top 100 on BGG. And some of the newer more accessible games will get a ton of ratings that I would argue they don't really deserve.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go has also a thousand years of history and is very popular. Even if the basic rules are simple and fast to learn, you still need a long time to learn the game's current meta and reach an acceptable level of ability by today's standards. This is very different from any new game with similar complexity, where you only play against people who invested a similar short amount of time.

Yes, but that's not an indicator of complexity. It's an indicator of the skill of other players. You can make an argument that the game tree complexity is immense, but that's because people prefer to play on 19x19 boards. 9x9 boards are similar to chess in game tree complexity, and had in fact strong computer engine play ten years before AlphaGo

it's not about other players, it's about the ability to understand what's going on at all. go is not a "simple game with a lot of depth", even reading the board is a skill

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bad take. Words in a dictionary have no interactions. It's a list of words in alphabetical order and their definitions. Well crafted board game rules are about systems that interact with each other. You don't have to be rules heavy to have an interesting game, but the interactions between systems needs to be there to be interesting beyond some number of consecutive plays. A lot of lighter games will quickly…

Well, here's a more developed (and spicier) take then. Larger board games are very often mere laundry lists of systems that can be found in many other board games. The longer games tend to have systems that MAKE the game long, rather than cause people to develop a strategy. One example is some mechanics forcing synchronous turns, or even worse, preventing you from preparing your turn in advance. Which gets even worse…

Don't worry, there are even a lot of heavy game players who define "heaviness" by complexity of strategy, not the word count of the rule book. I have to admit, I love a very long game, but game length doesn't require rule length.

But if you're not a person who loves intricate, shallow pastiche, you're probably not a person who buys 1-3 retail games every month. Which means that the market shouldn't cater to us. I do wish that BGG still did sometimes, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that BGGs visitorship is shrinking.

I've almost dead-stopped visiting of late, but 1) picking the right selection of geekbuddies can narrow BGG into something that's still useful to find good games and some good conversation about games, and 2) the geekmarket can help you find those games when they've been out of print for a long time.

Here's a less commercial recommendation that gets you a warehouse full of games for almost nothing: New Tactical Games With Dice and Cards, and Dice Games Properly Explained by Reiner Knizia.

Includes dozens of games with variants that thoughtfully explore the spaces of those games, and encourages you to play around with them to discover new challenges. I wish Wolfgang Kramer would start giving away his secrets like Knizia always has.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#35
The ratings don't diverge around 2015 and it's not due to a hype split.

They diverge around 2000 (slowly, with increasing divergence) and it's due to the fact that this is when BGG started collecting ratings.

As author points out, newer games have higher ratings. If we hypothesize that brand new games get overrated when first released, we can posit that this "newness" effect would apply for games that are released during BGG lifetime, but not before.

Using a Wilson score instead of the actual rating would control for this effect.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying bigger books are better because more pages = more complexity = more interesting plot. You must be a big fan of the dictionary. I've found the best board games are often the simplest ones. 2-player vanilla Splendor is one of my favourites and all it takes to play is a deck of cards and a stack of tokens. When both players have a good level, the depth of strategy of that game is crazy good. And unli…

That's a bad take. Words in a dictionary have no interactions. It's a list of words in alphabetical order and their definitions. Well crafted board game rules are about systems that interact with each other. You don't have to be rules heavy to have an interesting game, but the interactions between systems needs to be there to be interesting beyond some number of consecutive plays. A lot of lighter games will quickly…

>Words in a dictionary have no interactions

Ahaha tell that to a writer! Perhaps others are more strategic with their use of words than you are :)

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bad take. Words in a dictionary have no interactions. It's a list of words in alphabetical order and their definitions. Well crafted board game rules are about systems that interact with each other. You don't have to be rules heavy to have an interesting game, but the interactions between systems needs to be there to be interesting beyond some number of consecutive plays. A lot of lighter games will quickly…

Well, here's a more developed (and spicier) take then. Larger board games are very often mere laundry lists of systems that can be found in many other board games. The longer games tend to have systems that MAKE the game long, rather than cause people to develop a strategy. One example is some mechanics forcing synchronous turns, or even worse, preventing you from preparing your turn in advance. Which gets even worse…

I didn't argue that merely having rules or more systems is a good thing. If the systems don't work together well, you get a bad game. But it's hard to argue that Splendor is as epic as a good (6 player) game of Twilight Imperium or Pendragon.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#38

> I was a bit shaken by Eat Poop You Cat, but it seems a nice game you can play with pen and paper. This looks like a marvelous game that requires no purchase and no special equipment. Why would it shake anyone except for a ridiculous name?

Interesting; I've never heard of Eat Poop You Cat (and I doubt I would've forgotten it if I had), but it's basically the same idea as Consequences [0] or Picture Consequences [1], only less structured. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequences_(game) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse#Picture_conse...

I had never heard of the name either, but then from the description I realized it was simply what we always called Words and Pictures.

It's a fun game, and essentially a version of telephone.

I grew up in a family of classicist academics, and had to endure the Latin game, which was exactly the same except instead of drawing pictures you translated the sentence into (usually poor) Latin, and then back again with every round.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#39
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting; I've never heard of Eat Poop You Cat (and I doubt I would've forgotten it if I had), but it's basically the same idea as Consequences [0] or Picture Consequences [1], only less structured. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequences_(game) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse#Picture_conse...

I had never heard of the name either, but then from the description I realized it was simply what we always called Words and Pictures. It's a fun game, and essentially a version of telephone. I grew up in a family of classicist academics, and had to endure the Latin game , which was exactly the same except instead of drawing pictures you translated the sentence into (usually poor) Latin, and then back again with ever…

> you translated the sentence into (usually poor) Latin, and then back again with every round.

I’m honestly jealous you grew up in a family that could do this.

Re: Diving into BoardGameGeek

#40
One other variable I'd like to see studied is the average cost of new releases over time. I have a hunch that this price has been steadily rising in the age of Kickstarter and deluxe editions.

Higher price tag means a stronger urge to justify that purchase with a higher rating.

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