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The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

ucl.ac.uk

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Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#31

Post by burntoutfire »

justalanm wrote: post #25
burntoutfire wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work already is not mandatory. Anyone is free to figure out other ways to get food and shelter.

Not really, can I print money to get food? So, not free, it's just an illusion, at least for 99% of the people.

There's free food in garbage bins, if you don't want to work for it. There are people who exclusively feed from large stores' garbage, it's totally doable. Although perhaps some people would consider going to the store and getting the food from the trash "work", and will settle for nothing less than a daily instacart delivery.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#32

Post by justalanm »

e1g wrote: post #17
agumonkey wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing the link. I often think about efforts of primitive~ survival vs efforts in societies. It seems there's something egotistic about survival (like animals) that satisfies a sense of self (nobody ever said no to hunting when they're hungry)

I’m currently reading “Work: A Deep History, from the Stone Age to the Age of Robots” [0] and it’s an anthropological exploration of these topics. I don’t know if I recommend it to all yet, but if you often think about the philosophy of labor, it might tickle your brain in the right way. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0525561757/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch...

Thanks for the tip, I can suggest (after getting some introductory anthropology reading) this as well https://www.amazon.it/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612194192

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#33

Post by nefitty »

justalanm wrote: post #25
burntoutfire wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work already is not mandatory. Anyone is free to figure out other ways to get food and shelter.

Not really, can I print money to get food? So, not free, it's just an illusion, at least for 99% of the people.

To follow your line of reasoning, no one is physically stopping you from printing money. No one is physically stopping you from committing crimes to gain wealth.

White-collar crimes constitute 3% of federal prosecutions. Additionally, prosecutions have been on the decline for the past several years. Add "the fear of going to jail" to your list of illusions.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#34

Post by roenxi »

jokoon wrote: post #5

I was again, arguing about work on reddit. Someone said that even animals "work" to survive. I found that the comparison was not really good. Food and shelter are abundant. Technology improved the human condition, but it made humans be much much less social, which is the main cause of inequalities. The individual car/kitchen/living room/bathroom generate exclusion. I'm an introvert, I want to have my safe space, but…

I don't think I've ever heard anyone arguing that people shouldn't have reliable access to food and shelter. My complaint is when people start getting shelter in much nicer parts of the world than I get to live in, for free. If people want to fall back on the generosity of others they should be shuffled to the least desirable shelters and given last pick of the food. Anything else is unfair to people who are working hard.

To reverse "you cannot tell people that working in fast food or in customer support is mandatory to eat and have a roof on your head" - I can absolutely say that people willing to work in fast food or customer support should have priority to choose their homes and dining habits before people who rely on public largess.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#35

Post by tapas73 »

justalanm wrote: post #25
burntoutfire wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work already is not mandatory. Anyone is free to figure out other ways to get food and shelter.

Not really, can I print money to get food? So, not free, it's just an illusion, at least for 99% of the people.

Depends on defintion of "can".

Physically you can. Legally not.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#36

Post by roenxi »

justalanm wrote: post #25
burntoutfire wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work already is not mandatory. Anyone is free to figure out other ways to get food and shelter.

Not really, can I print money to get food? So, not free, it's just an illusion, at least for 99% of the people.

What is the complaint here? If you had the power to print money, so would everyone else. And money would be worthless and you couldn't exchange it for food even if you had it.

The issue you are identifying here might be physics and reality rather than a political problem. ironically food does grow on trees, but it is still "mandatory" to work to prepare it if you want to eat it. You can't escape that.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#37

Post by gls2ro »

justalanm wrote: post #27
gls2ro wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you are arguing here. There might be hunter-gatherers, but they are few. Our society has given up on that and in the current state (people living on Earth) we cannot go back to that stage. For for all the purposes humanity has given up completely on being hunter-gatherers. Even if some people are still doing that, it is not a feasible for everybody.

> Our society has given up on that That's the point when I say: "you've given up on that", meaning that some societies have moved to something else, but there are many in the world. It's important to understand that it's a choice, there's no "right way forward", it isn't evolution, just organization. > we cannot go back to that stage Not saying we have to, but it might happen in the future for many reasons (nuclear w…

I am also open to new ideas. So let's try to have a conversation about this.

Let me clarify (or add to my initial comment): When I say "we cannot go back to that stage" and "our society has given up on that" I want to say that we cannot feed 6-7 billion people with the process of hunter-gatherer. Or at least I cannot see how that could be possible.

So let's try to imagine how can it be that we all 7 billion are hunter-gatherers:

1. Are they enough animals to be hunted (not raised in farms - right?) are enough vegetables/fruits to be eaten? Can we make it so that we can assure at least 1-2 billion people (if not more) a sustainable way that we consume natural-grown resources and at the same time help replenish them without establishing a system that is like agriculture?

2. Can billion of people migrate every season to gather food?

I see no concrete answer in the now for this. It might be that we want to go there but in my assumption, this could happen either due to a catastrophic event or in hundred of years if not more. So, ideologically we might want or not be like that. But pragmatically that is not possible right now.

Or maybe I have a different definition of what that state of living is, so maybe we should define what a hunter-gatherer society looks like?

More general, every time I see a proposal/discussion about how we should live I am always concerned about "how can we all live" not just a group of people/or a specific country. Because if we cannot find a way for all of us to live then that is not a stable model.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#38

Post by raptor99 »

e1g wrote: post #17
agumonkey wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind sharing the link. I often think about efforts of primitive~ survival vs efforts in societies. It seems there's something egotistic about survival (like animals) that satisfies a sense of self (nobody ever said no to hunting when they're hungry)

I’m currently reading “Work: A Deep History, from the Stone Age to the Age of Robots” [0] and it’s an anthropological exploration of these topics. I don’t know if I recommend it to all yet, but if you often think about the philosophy of labor, it might tickle your brain in the right way. [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0525561757/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch...

I assume you've already read Wealth of Nations among other foundations?

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#39

Post by raptor99 »

justalanm wrote: post #25
burntoutfire wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work already is not mandatory. Anyone is free to figure out other ways to get food and shelter.

Not really, can I print money to get food? So, not free, it's just an illusion, at least for 99% of the people.

Well depending on your definition of work, who is required to work for money? There are other ways to get it.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#40

Post by yesenadam »

fifticon wrote: post #13
neilwilson wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Food and shelter are abundant." Only because somebody made them by working Monday to Friday. That somebody could make less by working Monday to Tuesday. Food and shelter would be less abundant and the person currently working a full week to produce the surplus would instead have the rest of the week to themselves. The productivity, and the free time, would accrue to those expending the effort of production - as mora…

the wealth piled up with people like elon musk and jeff bezos indicate this is not what is being solved or handled here. The 188b$ of Bezos and 264b$ of Musk are clearly not dedicated to providing me with hamburgers and sleeping quarters. If I divided those 452b$ amongst 334m americans, I'd get around 1300$ per head. Though net worth is not the same as yearly income, I note that Musk's 264b$ represent 5.600 times the…

> Musk's 264b$ represent 5.600 times the average american's yearly income

By my reckoning, $ 264,000,000,000 / 5600 = $ 47,142,857.14

Maybe you meant to say it's 5,600,000 times the average US yearly income?

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