Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#31

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

velcrovan wrote: post #30

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

> No-one in their right mind would create […] society Right. Because societies are emergent things that arise from masses of people, not products of an individual’s design preferences. That’s not to say that we might not eventually get to one language. But it won’t be because of illiterate* ideals expressed through technocratic meddling. (* — “Illiterate” in its original sense: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2012/05/03/r…

What's the difference between the technocratic meddling of getting everybody to stop spreading AIDS and the technocratic meddling of getting everybody to start speaking the same language?

We build consensus, we devote dollars and person-hours, and we try to figure out how to get closer to a desired end state. We do it all the time. But when it's giving a generation of people plumbing that's monumental human progress and when it's giving a generation of people a lingua franca that's illiterate technocratic meddling.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#32

Post by 63 » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:00 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Language is an integral part of every culture. It's not just an arbitrary system that everyone chose differently, but a way of communicating and reinforcing ideas that's unique to different groups. Consider the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. There's a reason language was associated with nationalism in the 20th century. Keeping the diversity of breadth of the human experience alive (much of which we've already lost with increasing globalism) means keeping diverse languages and cultures, and I think that's important.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#33

Post by ziotom78 » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

yboris wrote: post #27

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Language is a way of thought. Languages come with their own quirks, and just like [plant] monoculture is bad for an ecosystem, so would a single language. Since I was born in Russia and came to the US (thus becoming fluent in both languages), and especially after reading the book "Metaphors we live by" I see how language forces certain concepts on us. Having a variety of languages is a benefit, despite introducing pr…

I second this. Better having a 2nd language that is common for everybody than have just one language and only one way to express thoughts. I speak Italian (my mother tongue), English, Romanian and a bit of German, and I really enjoy when I discover subtle connections between words/sayings and the culture of the people using that language.

(As an analogy, what if the world decides that only C++ should be used to write programs and libraries?!? Boooring!)

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#34

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

63 wrote: post #32

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Language is an integral part of every culture. It's not just an arbitrary system that everyone chose differently, but a way of communicating and reinforcing ideas that's unique to different groups. Consider the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. There's a reason language was associated with nationalism in the 20th century. Keeping the diversity of breadth of the human experience alive (much of which we've already lost with incr…

This is the standard refrain any time somebody calls for a unified language: "it's an integral part of our culture".

I addressed this:

> Everybody has their own local medicines, even traditional witch-doctor medicines, but at the same time everybody gets the exact same doxycycline and training on when to use it. Likewise whatever word we end up choosing for "fish" and "net": use whatever word you want in your village, but when you want the one that works in the rest of the world, we made sure you're already armed with it.

Will this mean losing the diversity of cultures due to increased globalism? Yes.

Now here comes my most unpopular opinion on HN:

Good, let's lose some cultures.

My culture isn't special. Human cultures aren't a scare resource and we make up new ones all the time. If the next generation, which enjoys the gift of a single unified baseline language, isn't interested in my culture anymore, that's fine. It might even be good news.

When they need a culture like my culture again, they'll develop one, probably within years or months.

Complex cultures pop into and out of existence on the internet every day, and they're no less complex and no less varied than the ones that involved worshipping tree spirits and eating each other's hearts for strength. Let dying cultures die.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#35

Post by thatjoeoverthr » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #29

kartikay26 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think we need to put in extra “effort” to make it happen, it’s already happening - and English is becoming the default global language. Knowing English is an advantage in most jobs all over the world and it seems the percentage of English speakers in the world is increasing over time.

That's true, it's going in that direction. But that's like saying there's less Malaria year over year because we're naturally building cities and towns that displace mosquito habitats. If we're going to agree that X is a problem and that we're happy the problem is naturally diminishing at some snail-like pace, then let's also agree to take direct action to solve X properly and now. We're tackling the Malaria problem,…

Empirically, most people deal with English’a dumb spelling. Over a billion people have gone and learned English, on top of native speakers. We’re using it now. Your hypothetical new language would have to displace this incumbent which for all practical purposes already does what you want of it. Miraculously, people can do more than one language so all this happens without anyone abandoning their languages. English spelling is not okay but it’s not -far- from okay. Most people (who, again, empirically deal with it fine) are typing with autocorrect.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#36

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

ziotom78 wrote: post #33

yboris wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is a way of thought. Languages come with their own quirks, and just like [plant] monoculture is bad for an ecosystem, so would a single language. Since I was born in Russia and came to the US (thus becoming fluent in both languages), and especially after reading the book "Metaphors we live by" I see how language forces certain concepts on us. Having a variety of languages is a benefit, despite introducing pr…

I second this. Better having a 2nd language that is common for everybody than have just one language and only one way to express thoughts. I speak Italian (my mother tongue), English, Romanian and a bit of German, and I really enjoy when I discover subtle connections between words/sayings and the culture of the people using that language. (As an analogy, what if the world decides that only C++ should be used to write…

> just one language and only one way to express thoughts.

There's no reason any reasonable person would suggest this

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#37

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

thatjoeoverthr wrote: post #35

newsbinator wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, it's going in that direction. But that's like saying there's less Malaria year over year because we're naturally building cities and towns that displace mosquito habitats. If we're going to agree that X is a problem and that we're happy the problem is naturally diminishing at some snail-like pace, then let's also agree to take direct action to solve X properly and now. We're tackling the Malaria problem,…

Empirically, most people deal with English’a dumb spelling. Over a billion people have gone and learned English, on top of native speakers. We’re using it now. Your hypothetical new language would have to displace this incumbent which for all practical purposes already does what you want of it. Miraculously, people can do more than one language so all this happens without anyone abandoning their languages. English sp…

Every person who learns English writing today spends literal years learning it to the point of not being embarrassingly bad at writing it.

I'm not sure if you've ever had to learn English as a non-native English speaker, but it's one of the hardest, most painful, longest things to get truly proficient at, equal to other very hard aspects in one's very hard profession.

There are hundreds of millions of smart people who can't communicate their ideas to us in even simple English sentences. Whereas English grammar, as long as you avoid idioms, is pretty accessible as far as natural languages go.

So to sum up: as a global language English is maybe okay, but its writing system makes it not at all okay.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#38

Post by kragen » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:21 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Schleyer's project of an international auxiliary language (and then later Zamenhof's, with Esperanto, and Hogben's with Interlingua) is indeed very worthwhile. It seems to have run into some political resistance, though.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#39

Post by tgv » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

What would that solve? Do large societies with a common language do so much better than those with multiple languages?

> South Korean Hangul

The Roman alphabet is just as simple, and much wider spread. English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language with great expressive power. So shall we settle on English as the New World Language? Thought so.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#40

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Is this an unpopular opinion? I think that languages are beautiful and culture should be studied and respected—but yes, of course the world would be more efficient if we had a single universal language. (And preferably not English, since English is horrible.) There’s a reason the Tower of Babel story depicts languages as a punishment from God.

The problem is that it’s ultimately a purely academic debate, for somewhat similar reasons to why QWERTY vs DVORAK discussions never lead anywhere. I have spent my entire life practicing reading and writing in english. I have zero interest in all that away to switch to an entirely new language, much less one that none of the people around me speak. You’re just never going to develop a movement around this in a free society, so there’s no point.