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Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

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Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#31
post #29

I remember getting out all these C64/BASIC programming books from the library when I was a kid. They were filled with cartoon robots and such if I remember correctly. I remember typing a "lot" (I was somewhere in the 5-7 range at that point) of code from those (and other) books into our C64. I don't recall understanding most/any of what I wrote, but I think it got me sufficiently interested to keep me going until I g…

They had some notes around the graphics examples saying that differences in syntax may prevent the code from being parsed successfully, and sure enough, none of those commands were available in the V2 BASIC dialect the C64 had.

Even the manual of the machine only included a single hi-res mode example in an appendix, and dedicated one chapter to sprite handling, but that was it. Yes, I am still angry.

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#33
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every time a user does a repetitive task that should have been a loop they created themself, that waste of life is a small death, and the blood is on our industry. The majority of people have no interest in programming, no matter how humane a language were handed to them.

That is absolutely a myth; what we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night. At worst, they don’t know what they want; they asked for a faster horse, and we’re content to keep selling horses and feed. Watch a normal user use a computer sometime to do work without interjecting. They all do stupid repetitive tasks that take hours and should be easily automated. Look how far people get with Excel with no programming know…

You give two examples (spreadsheets, Autohotkey) that actually contradict your central thesis of no good tools. Seems like those are examples of ordinary people successfully using no-code to make their lives easier?

There are so many free programming languages available to anyone interested, ranging in human comprehensibility from (the incomprehensible) brainfuck [0] to natural language interpreters for writers of interactive fiction [1], and everything in between. Visual programming languages [2], languages for children [3], languages for visual artists, for musicians, for stock traders. There's even a language using power ballad lyrics [4]!

I love your sentiment that programming is for everyone, but with respect I utterly disagree that there are no good tools for ordinary people to use. If anything, there is an overwhelming, embarrassment of riches.

But, maybe you are right? Maybe you have an insight that could be helpful? Share it, man! The world needs you!

> ...we kneecap them with awful tools

Who is this "we", Kemosabe?

If you want to help make interactive narratives easier and less prone to bugs, I have a fallow side project I need help with [5]. These people seem cool [6] and could use your insights, I'm sure (seem to be defunct, but perhaps from lack of interest? Jump start it? Track them down, find out what happened?)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck [1] http://inform7.com/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language#Li...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_educational_programmin...

[4] https://codewithrockstar.com/

[5] https://github.com/rendall/quest-driven-development#readme

[6] http://blog.interfacevision.com/

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#34
post #22

As someone who spent a decent chunk of his youth typing BASIC commands from Books like these into a Mattel Aquarius, I’m pretty disenchanted by the choice of languages. None of them embody the human-first optimism of early BASICs. BASIC was designed for normal humans to actually get work done, the same vision HyperCard would bring later. It’s reflected and it’s very English syntax. It was, in no uncertain terms, the…

At least VB.NET is part of the list.

I guess the only modern environments where we could replicate the experience would be something like running MicroPython on an Raspberry Pi 400.

Or the Swift Playgrounds (assuming an external keyboard).

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#35

I remember getting that book from the library and getting the games to work on my TI-99/4a. The BASIC dialect on that machine was not quite the same as used in the book so some translation was necessary. Can't copy/paste from a book (copy/paste wasn't a thing on that machine anyway) so you had to sit down and type it in, keystroke by keystroke. I think the slow pace of it helped me understand what the program was doi…

My abiding memory of typing in listings on my TI-99/4a is how often I intended to type shift-equals to get '+' but instead hit function-equals, which reset the machine and lost all my work since I last saved (and since it was saving to tape, I didn't save all that frequently...)

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#36
These books were great. What especially captured my imagination were not just the drawings, but the fact that every listing would be prefaced by a print-out of a run of the game. This made it really easy to see what the program was about (entertaining enough by itself) but it would also allow me to map whatever the game was doing with the BASIC listing next to it. This was kind of like using a debugger to step through the program and it was a really neat way to learn about control flow and program structure.

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#37
post #22

As someone who spent a decent chunk of his youth typing BASIC commands from Books like these into a Mattel Aquarius, I’m pretty disenchanted by the choice of languages. None of them embody the human-first optimism of early BASICs. BASIC was designed for normal humans to actually get work done, the same vision HyperCard would bring later. It’s reflected and it’s very English syntax. It was, in no uncertain terms, the…

> I’m pretty disenchanted by the choice of languages. None of them embody the human-first optimism of early BASICs.

Nothing yet exists that has the same properties: simplicity and automatic availability. JS wins on availability as it is present on almost every general purpose device via a web browser, but the syntax is not as human friendly as

    10 PRINT "Hello"
    20 GOTO 10
or better, lets tweak the language a bit and get rid of the line numbers:

    This is the start
    Print "Hello"
    Goto the start
Though as much as we love to hate them, I'd say spreadsheets come closest to That What Was because the people who use them are automatically there for work or to do some basic calcs for themselves, and the “programming” side of it is just there for them to discover as they need more complexity, they don't need to decide “I want to program”, they have a problem, they look up a solution, find one online, and modify it for their own needs, much like me in the 80s typing in a 10-line graphics demo or basic game and learning more by tweaking it. To a lesser extent things like minecraft count too.

> I don’t have a strong proposition for a specific language.

> People try to tell me that dream is dead. God I hope not,

There is no such language for current times, so the dream of reproducing the feeling BBC BASIC¹ in the days of yore because not only has the tech mover on but so have people's expectations. No one is going to be satisfied with those simple introductions as we were back then, so the barrier for entry is higher - the language and wider environment need to provide much more and make all that feel like the heady days of drawing random coloured dots in graphics mode 2 while, hiding all the complexity long enough to not put people off, while not limiting itself by hiding that complexity (making the complex more so, or even impossible) so that people give up when they discover they need to move to something else to get beyond a certain point⁴. And it needs to somehow compete with the rest of the world, gone are the days that you are sat in front of a disconnected computer with not much else to do but experiment and learn - it can't wait to be discovered it needs to drag people away from consuming and actively attract them to creating⁴. And we aren't just dealing with a bunch of nerds/geeks who speak at least a little English, anything like this these days needs to be embarrassingly easy to perfectly internationalise⁵, without breaking anything⁴. And it then has to get commonly accepted to become popular and therefore survive³. If you create a language/environment that manages all that⁴, then why not finish off your morning with breakfast at MILLYWAYS?!

[1] The best 8-bit basic, bar non. No silly-short naming limits, proper procedures and functions² rather than just GOTO & GOSUB, a built-in multi-pass assembler for if you got really adventurous, ...

[2] Well, there were significant limits compared to what we have now, but understandably so in such small power & memory.

[3] Not unlike how gods and belief work in Pratchett's Discworld.

[4] This is, of course, impossible.

[5] ref: “reflected and it’s very English syntax”, and it isn't nearly as simple as just swapping keywords out for local ones either.

> BASIC was designed for normal humans to actually get work done,

I hate to break it to you but we were, at best, a subset of normal humans, in the eyes of the rest of the humans!

> Every time a user does a repetitive task that should have been a loop they created themself,

That is rather too dogmatic. I'm a dev-cum-DBA with decades of inexperience behind me, and I do many repetitive things that I've not yet automated. If you automate everything you do more than twice you end up automating things that you'll never use again after next week, and never actually do much beyond making and testing automations.

> that dream is dead

Going back to that: the general dream is dead IMO. We need to stop hoping to find the One True Path to lead people along. The dream can still exist in smaller parts though, if we accept multiple very different paths without disparaging any particular ones of them: people starting by automating Minecraft stuff, people starting by trying to make DayJob easier in Excel, people in learning settings using interative notebooks to explore in more detail, people who want to make Alexa tell a fart gag at an inappropriate time to embarrass gran, people adding interaction to a simple web page, ... No one language or environment can do all, or even a fraction of, the everythings that might work for some people.

I, like many others, unfortunately have no idea what to do about it, beyond pontificating as above and hoping that someone else comes up with some bright new ideas (or resurrects some forgotten old ones that were not fully realised/appreciated in their original frame).

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#38
post #34
post #22

As someone who spent a decent chunk of his youth typing BASIC commands from Books like these into a Mattel Aquarius, I’m pretty disenchanted by the choice of languages. None of them embody the human-first optimism of early BASICs. BASIC was designed for normal humans to actually get work done, the same vision HyperCard would bring later. It’s reflected and it’s very English syntax. It was, in no uncertain terms, the…

At least VB.NET is part of the list. I guess the only modern environments where we could replicate the experience would be something like running MicroPython on an Raspberry Pi 400. Or the Swift Playgrounds (assuming an external keyboard).

Small Basic would be more appropriate than VB.NET https://smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#39
post #22

As someone who spent a decent chunk of his youth typing BASIC commands from Books like these into a Mattel Aquarius, I’m pretty disenchanted by the choice of languages. None of them embody the human-first optimism of early BASICs. BASIC was designed for normal humans to actually get work done, the same vision HyperCard would bring later. It’s reflected and it’s very English syntax. It was, in no uncertain terms, the…

With that in mind, it might be more effective to write a BASIC REPL in Javascript (I’m sure one already exists) and then run the original programs.

Re: Updating the most influential book of the BASIC era

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least VB.NET is part of the list. I guess the only modern environments where we could replicate the experience would be something like running MicroPython on an Raspberry Pi 400. Or the Swift Playgrounds (assuming an external keyboard).

Small Basic would be more appropriate than VB.NET https://smallbasic-publicwebsite.azurewebsites.net/

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