Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#31

Post by Levitz » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

daneel_w wrote: post #19

I know the title of the book as it was for a brief period on the receiving end of some ridicule (rather than praise), though I hadn't heard about its "colorized" idea until I read this article. As I remember it the book made at most a bit of "noise" in media, more so than being a wave of revelation, and my gut feeling as a Swede is that most people bought the book out of the sensationalist and entertaining promise. I…

>I know the title of the book as it was for a brief period on the receiving end of some ridicule (rather than praise), though I hadn't heard about its "colorized" idea until I read this article.

Maybe the whole idea about selling books based on assuming things depending on which color people are ringed someone's bells at the marketing department.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#32

Post by NicoJuicy » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #10

And yet we still see fools in the US who actually believe that Myers-Briggs personality types like "INTJ" are somehow meaningful. It's hilarious.

It's not Meyer Briggs:

> Despite the use of colours, it turned out that the “Surrounded by …” books were not based on Myers-Brigg. Instead, they built on another personality theory, the so-called DiSC model.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#33

Post by rrmm » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

maratc wrote: post #17

I've lost the thought around this part: > For example, consider a person who says, “now I understand why I have such negative thoughts, can’t get to sleep, and have difficulty getting going…I’ve got depression.” This person might believe that the explanation of her symptoms is depression, but in fact, the diagnosis of depression is just a categorisation of exactly these symptoms. The diagnosis of depression usually r…

The symptoms of depression and criteria are contained in the DSM. They don't involve brain chemistry or functioning (per se), e.g. "Recurrent thoughts of death, recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide."

The underlying reasons for those symptoms may involve chemical imbalances, but those aren't established or tested for. They don't take a CSF sample or do an MRI for a diagnosis.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#34

Post by helsinkiandrew » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

halpert wrote: post #20

I read some of this article. I have never heard about the color system in question. If it’s really a fraudulent system, it should be easy to say “The system claims thing X, here is evidence X is false.” Instead, this article is filled with anecdotes and what seems like random conjecture on what personality “really” is. This is not a convincing argument.

Surely if a book claims people can be split into 4 colour types it should be the book that should provide the proof?

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#35

Post by johnchristopher » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

maratc wrote: post #17

I've lost the thought around this part: > For example, consider a person who says, “now I understand why I have such negative thoughts, can’t get to sleep, and have difficulty getting going…I’ve got depression.” This person might believe that the explanation of her symptoms is depression, but in fact, the diagnosis of depression is just a categorisation of exactly these symptoms. The diagnosis of depression usually r…

> The diagnosis of depression usually revolves around changes in body chemistry and the functioning of the brain. It is an issue as real as diabetes is. To explain my point further, consider the following:

I have never heard of anyone getting a depression diagnosis based on changes in their body chemistry or the functioning of the brain.

It's always set after a talk about feelings, situation, emotions and "what's going on ?".

Exceptions are from articles dealing with electrical shock therapies that regularly hit the front page.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#36

Post by krsdcbl » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

zibzab wrote: post #8

The book maybe is garbage, but it makes people think about others feelings and goals in meetings. This is already much more than an average person does walking into a social situation.

but if it leads them on to thinking about said feelings and goals in terms of dogmatic preconceptions, i doubt that it leads to much useful insight.

Rather it will get used for easy dismissal of other peoples standing point or need to think too much about own behaviour, grounded on the illusion of understanding patterns that "make them" be like that.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#37

Post by learc83 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

maratc wrote: post #17

I've lost the thought around this part: > For example, consider a person who says, “now I understand why I have such negative thoughts, can’t get to sleep, and have difficulty getting going…I’ve got depression.” This person might believe that the explanation of her symptoms is depression, but in fact, the diagnosis of depression is just a categorisation of exactly these symptoms. The diagnosis of depression usually r…

We don’t understand the biological processes behind depression, and there is no lab test used to diagnose depression. It is just as the passage says, a categorization of symptoms.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t biological processes at work, but we don’t understand them enough to diagnose depression at that level. We aren’t even really sure why most depression treatments work.

Contrast that to diabetes. You don’t get diagnosed with diabetes because you have increased thirst and urination. You are diagnosed with diabetes because your fasting blood sugar level was too high.

And the treatments are any number of relatively well understood methods of regulating your blood sugar.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#38

Post by saba2008 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #13

ShockedUnicorn wrote: post #11

As a swede. This is the first time I've seen this 4 colour system. I'm 30, so maybe it's more popular around younger people? I have seen things like "INTP-J" on friends profile. I think it's called 16 personalities. Me and my colleagues did that test, and the suggested one for me did not fit in with me at all, and most of us thought the results were bullshit. Why anyone would follow this to make work groups, or to ex…

Is not that INTP thing Myers-Briggs that is mentioned in the article?

Yes, it is.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#39

Post by marginalia_nu » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #24

maratc wrote: post #17

I've lost the thought around this part: > For example, consider a person who says, “now I understand why I have such negative thoughts, can’t get to sleep, and have difficulty getting going…I’ve got depression.” This person might believe that the explanation of her symptoms is depression, but in fact, the diagnosis of depression is just a categorisation of exactly these symptoms. The diagnosis of depression usually r…

No no no no. The diagnosis of depression absolutely does not revolve around "changes in body chemistry and the functioning of the brain", except insofar as "functioning of the brain" equals the symptoms reported by the patient! There are no known physical or chemical tests for depression. Even if we have some vague theories about "chemical imbalance in the brain", for the most part the neurological or biochemical mec…

What irks me about this is every human experience is reflected in "changes in body chemistry and the functioning of the brain". But that's about as useful as saying that a car breaks down due to mechanical changes. It's not wrong, but it's pretty useless.

Re: Swedes were fooled by one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time (2020)

#40

Post by ghaff » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

ShockedUnicorn wrote: post #11

As a swede. This is the first time I've seen this 4 colour system. I'm 30, so maybe it's more popular around younger people? I have seen things like "INTP-J" on friends profile. I think it's called 16 personalities. Me and my colleagues did that test, and the suggested one for me did not fit in with me at all, and most of us thought the results were bullshit. Why anyone would follow this to make work groups, or to ex…

Myers-Briggs is mostly [1] pseudo-scientific BS. And the results may not even be very stable from one test-taking to the next.

[1] Mostly. MB and more recent variants can be useful for reinforcing that different people have different worldviews and tendencies. There's also some evidence that different groups, such as different professions (like programmers), do tend to test differently as a population and that has certain implications when they're creating products for a different population (like the general public) that tends to test differently.