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How the Jesuits Charted the World

engelsbergideas.com

31–40 of 51 posts

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#31

It’s important not to lump Jesuits in with other groups, or discount all Jesuits in history because of the actions of some. Things I heard growing up in Protestant circles may have biased me towards writing off the Jesuits, but a few years ago I read the 21st century book Heroic Leadership which was written by a Jesuit seminarian who took a surprising turn into investment banking and worked his way up to managing dir…

I agree and think the Jesuits are one of the best things to emerge from the Roman Church in ages. There are/have been problems with the Jesuits as with any other big, influential organization, but I think as a whole they deserve our respect for their piety (even if they're wrong about theism), erudition, and bravery in traveling the world in the early modern period. They've been called God's Marines for a reason, like a soldier tasked with establishing a beachhead, they suffered miserably for their mission. Speaking truth to power in defense of the colonized and powerless has generally been another of their dangerous practices

They published a Mandarin translation of Galileo's Starry Messenger and notes on sunspots within about 15 years of Messengers' first publication in Italy. They were successful in converting Japanese by not attempting to replace Japanese culture wholesale. The arrival of the Dominicans, the Dutch, and the end of the civil wars put a bloody stop to that, but their temporary success does demonstrate the efficacy of their methods. They stood up to National Socialism (among many others).

They also tried to defend Catholicism in England (and indeed ministered to cryptocatholics who weren't buying what Henry and Liz were selling). They became a stereotype arch-villain of the English propaganda of the era called the Black Legend. It's largely mixed with the historical truth in the modern popular imagination of the anglosphere by now (viz. Dan Brown) . It alleges that the Spanish were treacherous idolaters, fond of torture and so on. The Spanish indeed were rabid imperialists and religious bigots, but not to a unique degree for the age. The Jesuits were the ones being tortured in England for (religiously) aiding the silenced and powerless.

This tendency hasn't really changed. Liberation theology and its less extreme brethren have largely been products of Jesuit theology. At times it seems like they're among the few Catholics who read whole catechism (there are some surprisingly progressive ideas in it) and don't focus to great excess on sex and abortion.

It is important to remember the failings of the Church too.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#32
Does anybody have reliable information on the political influence excerted by this organization? I hear that it is significant, and that the principles of benevolence are quickly forgotten during power play.

Specifically I am wondering what career paths are closed off to non-jesuites, in practice because we all know how nice the theory appears to be?

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I must stand up for Jesus. As I see it, he was simply genious. And his teachings, while unattainable, work as a solid moral compass. Try to see the legend inside the myth and the genious inside the legend. I found it useful in life.

No post body was provided.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#34
post #32

Does anybody have reliable information on the political influence excerted by this organization? I hear that it is significant, and that the principles of benevolence are quickly forgotten during power play. Specifically I am wondering what career paths are closed off to non-jesuites, in practice because we all know how nice the theory appears to be?

Jesuit political influence was probably at its height with liberation theology in Latin America 1960-1989. This was effectively ended with the assassination of leading Jesuit intellectuals by a US-trained army battalion in 1989 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_murders_of_Jesuits_in_El_...).

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#35
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard this very often. The queen of England did not send ship loads of gold to do charity work in the colonies. The native tax payers to this day pay the salaries including the priests who work as principals or head masters. The land is almost always ill gotten, by force or on 99 year lease for $1. And in many parts of the world these schools were started explicitly to breed subjects loyal to the colonizers, M…

I have heard your argument too often from outsiders but never from anyone who actually studied in these schools. Luckily, I don't know any queen sympathizer among my friends who passed out from Jesuit institutions neither do I know anyone who converted. One thing I do know is that their schooling helped them to get jobs and get out of poverty when the software revolution happened. I am not well versed in European his…

My only point is the Christian schools or missions are not deserving of any of the praises you heap on them.

Their contribution to the actual school is 0. In fact it legitimizes their continuing hold of land and wealth grabbed from the natives and temples for a "good cause"

Colleges like Loyola in Chennai built on temple land manufacture derascinated Hindu hating Indians who go on to work in media, bureaucracy and judiciary and it does have a substantial negative impact, especially in a country trying to decolonise.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#36

My Spanish surname is a lasting legacy of the Jesuits deciding to rename (by sword or by reward) entire villages during the 16th century. https://mb.com.ph/2020/07/05/the-jesuits-in-the-philippines/

English (or Americans) colonizers would have wiped out your entire village. They haven’t even considered you human (like the natives of Australia).

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#37

It’s important not to lump Jesuits in with other groups, or discount all Jesuits in history because of the actions of some. Things I heard growing up in Protestant circles may have biased me towards writing off the Jesuits, but a few years ago I read the 21st century book Heroic Leadership which was written by a Jesuit seminarian who took a surprising turn into investment banking and worked his way up to managing dir…

I agree and think the Jesuits are one of the best things to emerge from the Roman Church in ages. There are/have been problems with the Jesuits as with any other big, influential organization, but I think as a whole they deserve our respect for their piety (even if they're wrong about theism), erudition, and bravery in traveling the world in the early modern period. They've been called God's Marines for a reason, lik…

> (even if they're wrong about theism)

an individual post says this, while generations uphold theism

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about abusing and killing people, how do we weigh the factors of "reliable historical accounts" and "good work recording linguistic data"?

It’s not about weighing anything, they simply left something useful for posterity. Their observations and record keeping has helped preserve some scraps of indigenous culture that would have otherwise been lost, even to surviving members of tribes today. That’s a good thing, even if missionaries did more bad than good overall.

'My house burned down'

'Now you have some nice charcoal for BBQs.'

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#39
post #32

Does anybody have reliable information on the political influence excerted by this organization? I hear that it is significant, and that the principles of benevolence are quickly forgotten during power play. Specifically I am wondering what career paths are closed off to non-jesuites, in practice because we all know how nice the theory appears to be?

Jesuit political influence was probably at its height with liberation theology in Latin America 1960-1989. This was effectively ended with the assassination of leading Jesuit intellectuals by a US-trained army battalion in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_murders_of_Jesuits_in_El_... ).

Do you mean influence in the sense of how often they are mentioned in media? I heard Bill Clinton is Jesuit.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#40
post #18

It’s important not to lump Jesuits in with other groups, or discount all Jesuits in history because of the actions of some. Things I heard growing up in Protestant circles may have biased me towards writing off the Jesuits, but a few years ago I read the 21st century book Heroic Leadership which was written by a Jesuit seminarian who took a surprising turn into investment banking and worked his way up to managing dir…

I went to Jesuit high school and we had to watch "The Mission" (the Jeremy Irons movie) almost as often as Dead Poet's Society. That and "Romero". The good thing about it, though, is that the Jesuits at that school were performatively endorsing liberation theology, which is not something you can say for Catholicism writ large.

"The Mission" did not impress me. The Jesuits of that century did not train up teddy bears.
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