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New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

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Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#31

Post by Manuel_D »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #5
Manuel_D wrote: post #2

Minimum salary: $10,000 per year. Maximum salary: $1,000,000 per year. Legal compliance achieved, while still effectively maintaining confidentiality of salary info.

That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."

> the employer in good faith believes

So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range.

And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 range, but a range of 5:1 is still a wide enough range such that expected salaries are still effectively unknown.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#32

Post by erichocean »

tablespoon wrote: post #14
rahimnathwani wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."

> That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: It's amazing how some people lazily assume they're so much cleverer than everyone else. A good heuristic is to assume you're just plain wrong if you think you've discovered a way to weasel out of a law with only five seconds worth of thought.

Right, the first thing a compliance officer will ask is: "what are your actually paid right now?"

When your given range and that range don't roughly coincide, they'll ask why—and then fine you for your bullshit "are you a mind reader?" response.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#34

Post by 999900000999 »

tablespoon wrote: post #29
rytcio wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other path to Hell is to not act on good intentions. Only if you ignore unintended consequences

> Only if you ignore unintended consequences Some people seem to think the hand-waved threat of "unintended consequences" should be enough to kill any policy they happen to dislike. It's not. I'm tired of the broken record fearmongering about unintended consequences, especially when it's paired (as it always is) with no constructive alternative to address the problem in question. It's an unpersuasive attempt at preve…

I don't see anything that needs improving.

If you don't have the courage to ask how much the job pays on the first call that's your problem. If you agree to a certain wage that's what you agreed to.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#35

Post by rahimnathwani »

Manuel_D wrote: post #31
rahimnathwani wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."

> the employer in good faith believes So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range. And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 rang…

For software engineering compensation, wide salary range isn't the biggest issue. It's that much of the compensation (often 25% to 60%) isn't salary: it's stock and discretionary bonus.

I haven't read the background for this law, but I guess it's meant to help people earning less than $100k, and people with less power to negotiate an initial offer.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#36

Post by distribot »

Manuel_D wrote: post #31
rahimnathwani wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."

> the employer in good faith believes So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range. And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 rang…

Can't the company be compelled to provide salary data for the role? I assume there is some kind of enforcement mechanism. So then it's a matter of explaining why your lowest paid senior engineer makes 150k, the median makes 200k and you've listed a floor of 10k? The judge/jury don't have to accept a smarmy response about how the hypothetical candidate might conceivably make 10k.

And on the subject of the window, most places have much narrower bands than that for a role. It might be that wide for all engineers, but not for senior engineers for example.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#37

Post by Kranar »

eschewobfuscat wrote: post #9
999900000999 wrote: post #4

Way to make harder to get a job! For my first salary role I took half the advertised pay as I knew less than half of what they wanted. With this crap I'd just not get the job.

This hasn't caused jobs to disappear in Colorado, which has a similar law.

Several companies refuse to hire from Colorado over its law:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/07/remote-...

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#38

Post by sokoloff »

chrismcb wrote: post #22
tablespoon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law opens any employer up to dozens of lawsuits if they hire people for less than what was advertised. If it actually does do that, then spell out why that's the case (e.g. what's the penalty for hiring someone for a salary outside the posted range)? The OP makes it sound like this is only to address certain information asymmetries in salary negotiation: > Currently, New York City employers are allowed to withh…

Why? Why would you ask to be paid less?

The alternative is no pay, not higher pay. If the employer thinks that you don't meet all the qualifications that they'd like, there are two reasonable outcomes:

1. The most likely => you don't get any offer.

2. You mutually agree to take a lower offer. It's a lower offer, but it's also much, much greater than zero. You got your foot in the door, can develop your skills, earn an income, and make progress in your career instead of continuing to interview.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#39

Post by Manuel_D »

distribot wrote: post #36
Manuel_D wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the employer in good faith believes So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range. And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 rang…

Can't the company be compelled to provide salary data for the role? I assume there is some kind of enforcement mechanism. So then it's a matter of explaining why your lowest paid senior engineer makes 150k, the median makes 200k and you've listed a floor of 10k? The judge/jury don't have to accept a smarmy response about how the hypothetical candidate might conceivably make 10k. And on the subject of the window, most…

An 60k is easily an entry level salary. And 300k is easily a principal engineer's salary. Put the two under the same job title and then you can say to the jury, "it's not just credible that this salary range could exist, this range actually already exist right now."

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#40

Post by DarylZero »

Manuel_D wrote: post #31
rahimnathwani wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That range probably doesn't satisfy the requirements of the new law: The range must: "extend from the lowest to the highest salary the employer in good faith believes at the time of the posting it would pay for the advertised job, promotion or transfer opportunity."

> the employer in good faith believes So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range. And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 rang…

> unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove

That's not how it works.

There is going to be an evidentiary standard (such as "preponderance of the evidence" -- it won't be "beyond a reasonable doubt") applied by an administrative law judge.

The judge can very well decide he CAN read minds -- unless YOU can read minds, or he decides to tell you, you won't know.

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