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I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

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Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#31

Post by Veen »

RivieraKid wrote: post #18

A hugely important factors behind getting a job are: being likeable, looking good, not being weird, having a good sense of humor, etc. If you are in the bottom, say, 10% in these factors, employers will pick other candidates. And obviously, they won't tell you why.

Sadly this is true. I've had conversations with very smart people who can't find a job. They often attribute it to some hiring shortcoming or bias, and sometimes that's the case. But for a couple of these people the reason was obvious: they were not "presentable" and didn't have a personality that would enable them to function well in a team, i.e. they didn't dress properly, didn't look after their personal hygiene, and were quite unpleasant to talk to.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#32

Post by bluefirebrand »

rayiner wrote: post #7
xwolfi wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be down just because you met one guy - who knows, maybe he cant work a week without insulting a client. Dont forget that when colleges didnt exist for everyone, say 200 years ago, most people were farmers. People are selective when it comes to timeframe, but it's just a mean regression - some periods reach peak, some get back lower, but all in all, we're trending up.

Farming is arguably more complicated and requires more domain knowledge than most service jobs today.

I don't even know if this is arguable. Most service jobs likely could be trained within a week at most. The most complicated part generally involves learning how to operate a point of sale system. Most of them could be operated by anyone, which is why self checkouts are a thing now.

Farming on the other hand, especially modern farming, must take a lot longer to learn. There is a lot more to learn about your equipment alone, nevermind your crops, fertilizers, rotating fields, weather patterns, etc.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#33

Post by dvt »

> who you know than what you know

Yeah, the world is a social place. There's a reason European royalty sent their kids to etiquette classes, and even these days fraternities and sororities have formals. That's how the world works. Someone that's surprised by this in their 20s or 30s was failed by their parents or immediate community and this has nothing to do with college.

You need to be nice to people, you need to be friendly, you need to know people, attend events, be fun and jovial, etc. Politeness and relationships are the underpinning of our entire society.

But if you're introverted (like me), this takes very deliberate practice. Over the past few years, I've posted in every monthly "who's hiring" thread here on HN as just an exercise and to meet people (mostly local to LA). I've met dozens of really cool entrepreneurs, fellow engineers, VPs, C-levels, and other smart folks. Most of these connections will go nowhere, but I wanted to practice being more outgoing by grabbing a beer or coffee and talking about life/technology/anything with strangers. I was able to put together an investor I met with a friend of mine that's trying to raise money; was able to pitch some startup ideas to folks that worked in that domain; but more importantly grow my rolodex and become more comfortable with the art of networking.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#34

Post by tptacek »

rowanG077 wrote: post #10
rayiner wrote: post #6

The economy that mobilized on a dime to defeat Nazi Germany and sent men to the moon had only 5% of adults with a college degree. Is it so much more complex now that kids need four more expensive years of education? And if it is more complex, is college as currently structured the cheapest way to develop those additional skills?

I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. You are assuming because the cream of the crop could achieve something (I.e. most certainly had college degrees) 70 years ago that we can still form society like that today. But society is not the same as it was then. I don't think you can argue that the median job today requires the same amount of knowledge or skill then it did 70 years ago. And that is what col…

One of the highest-growth jobs for liberal arts graduates (which make up the majority of graduates) is human resources. I'll plant a flag in this conversation right now and say that no part of the human resources job requires a 4-year college degree.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#35

Post by Foobar8568 »

jsiaajdsdaa wrote: post #25
mettamage wrote: post #9

> It’s already happening with companies like Lambda School focused on cultivating the next generation of software engineers by educating Bad example. Lambda School had some pretty bad press on HN about having lower completion rates than advertised, etc.

Why do people think self taught isnt viable

Because you need a special type of mindset and already be good in a school environment. If you are a drop out, not hard working/studying, you will most likely fail your endeavor.

And catching back a good degree might be challenging depending where you live.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#36

Post by jimnotgym »

sokoloff wrote: post #19
Ologn wrote: post #5

I have worked in IT for a long time, but have taken night and weekend college classes over the years. I took a CS 3xx class with mostly college seniors a few years ago. Most were CS majors. Once a bunch of us were outside talking, and I said something about software version control. The person I was talking to said "what's that?" I asked the others if they knew what software version control was. None knew. I said, "y…

Is university meant to be vocational training or learning the unchanging fundamentals and how to learn new things in the field? I think it serves a better purpose to teach the underlying fundamentals and not to do vocational training. I don't think it's a serious flaw that you can graduate from a top university with a CS degree without ever having written SQL, react, or used revision control. To me, those are vocatio…

You may be right, but then shouldn't the standard route for most developers be vocational rather than academic? How many developers do we need in the workforce with this academic background?

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#37

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #34
rowanG077 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. You are assuming because the cream of the crop could achieve something (I.e. most certainly had college degrees) 70 years ago that we can still form society like that today. But society is not the same as it was then. I don't think you can argue that the median job today requires the same amount of knowledge or skill then it did 70 years ago. And that is what col…

One of the highest-growth jobs for liberal arts graduates (which make up the majority of graduates) is human resources. I'll plant a flag in this conversation right now and say that no part of the human resources job requires a 4-year college degree.

[deleted]

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#38

Post by fullshark »

dvt wrote: post #33

> who you know than what you know Yeah, the world is a social place. There's a reason European royalty sent their kids to etiquette classes, and even these days fraternities and sororities have formals. That's how the world works. Someone that's surprised by this in their 20s or 30s was failed by their parents or immediate community and this has nothing to do with college. You need to be nice to people, you need to b…

Pretty much everyone has incomplete world views in their 20s/30s and gets a reality check as they make decisions and reap the consequences. It's just a matter of what particular lessons your parents / schooling / experiences failed to flesh out until then.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#39

Post by wrapupandkeepit »

jsiaajdsdaa wrote: post #25
mettamage wrote: post #9

> It’s already happening with companies like Lambda School focused on cultivating the next generation of software engineers by educating Bad example. Lambda School had some pretty bad press on HN about having lower completion rates than advertised, etc.

Why do people think self taught isnt viable

I think we believe (implicitly or explicitly) that "signaling" and "credential gaming[1]" are all the name of the game. I believe the best thing a college can do is place you in a community of people trying to learn together. A college fails this when you just have a bunch of people trying to past tests in solitude.

I want self-taught to be viable. I consider myself self-taught. I am one of those liberal arts majors that made my way into a data engineering career. I don't regret taking liberal arts but that's more due to a combination of luck, privilege, and personality.

[1] https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/degrees-of-anxiety/

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#40

Post by hammock »

Who taught this man that college was The Great Equalizer?

I was taught (for better or worse), by STEM grad parents no less, that the only college to strive for is an elite liberal arts education, and the purpose was to broaden my horizons and make connections. It explicitly wasn't to decide on a career and learn hard job skills.

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